Sell me on Mage:The Awakening

[Isator Levi]

As I think it was Dave B once wrote, Vampires can live in a world were there are only Vampires and Werewolves with only wolves and Spirits, but Mages live in a world were there is always something unknown and new popping up.

Even the corebook is pretty explicit about that. The transition to Chronicles of Darkness came with being more explicit that the world is weird down to the roots, to the point that constructing Integrity breaking points assumes that any given character has some forgotten encounter with it.

Vampires and werewolves can assume that the world outside their direct affairs is still what it seemed before they were changed, but mages get the entire worldview overturned sooner or later.

Hell, Mage Second Edition made the setting even more weird than the basic revelations that come with Awakening was. First you learn about the influences of the Supernal World, then you learn about many of the other strange dimensions and the question of how they work with one another. Mages can become acquainted with the fact that there's a place out there that looks a lot like straight up Hell and what the implications for that are.

It's not quite a Lovecraftian setting, but I do think a lot of mages need to... curate how much they inform themselves about this stuff to not get overwhelmed.

I think another angle of significance for mages in terms of horror and what makes the setting tick surrounds the Seers of the Throne. For a moment we'll put a pin in the subject of that Order itself and focus instead on what they operate with, the oppressive institutions of society. Mage: the Awakening is a game aware of the idea that a lot of what makes the world miserable for huge numbers of people is very deliberate. That it gets developed and promoted and a lot of those who don't directly believe in it are still complicit. Mages can look at a situation and the people involved in it and perceive some of these ugly underpinnings. You could observe a billionaire and see his position relative to all the exploited workers in the form of appropriate symbols, and how secure and gratified he is in that. Sure, that's the sort of thing you might have known or guessed at on an intellectual level, but it can be something else to actually see it directly as an aspect of his being.

One can look all over the place and find insights like that. There's good stuff as well, but the bad stuff can be more intense and draining. But it would also be the kind of thing many mages find difficult to look away from, because being Awakened generally means being somebody who yearned for greater knowledge. I'd also say it's very relevant to the experience of at least two Orders.

I'd say a decent amount of horror can be dredged from a situation where you, the mage, are fine, but you can be very aware of all the people who are not. You can get a very close look at the ways in which you don't need magic to destroy another person.

(I often think about that sort of thing with vampires as well, particularly the Mekhet. Second Edition makes a point that one possible night time occupation is voyeurism, and that Clan is particularly concerned with looking into people's homes and heads, and I'd say more than a few stare closely into what goes on behind closed doors at night and come away wondering who the real monsters are.)

[Ur-Than]

This thread and another about a Let's Read of Mummy the Curse makes me wonder if Mage is a must read to udnerstand the rest of the CoD (with its apparent planification of Lower Depths, etc.) since it seems to be able to impact a lot of the universe (where do the Strix comes? What is Hell? etc.). But is this more due to Mage having a more "scientific" depiction of the setting and thus offering an easier out of universe to explain description of the universe fans latched on, or is it because they are more in the right than other splats in-universe?

[monteparnas]

None of the two exactly, but it intersects. They poke everywhere and have the tools to do so, and as such they see a little of everything. You Uratha may have some contact with the Underworld, but the average Werewolf only deals with the Shadow and don't have much basis to read unrelated phenomena.

That gives Mages a more broad view of the world they live in. It doesn't give them as much certainty necessarily, or at least not a reasonable reason to feel like that, but it does give them some insight into each aspect and an opportunity to draw connections.

If are correct or not, that depends a lot. But they'll hardly achieve the same level of deep understanding about a given aspect as a "specialist".

[Isator Levi]

This thread and another about a Let's Read of Mummy the Curse makes me wonder if Mage is a must read to udnerstand the rest of the CoD (with its apparent planification of Lower Depths, etc.) since it seems to be able to impact a lot of the universe (where do the Strix comes? What is Hell? etc.). But is this more due to Mage having a more "scientific" depiction of the setting and thus offering an easier out of universe to explain description of the universe fans latched on, or is it because they are more in the right than other splats in-universe?

The thing about the Lower Depths is that it isn't necessary to understand Duat, it's just a way of describing what is already apparent about it; it's a realm that lacks its own Sekhem and so draws it from Earth.

Mages are concerned with looking in all kinds of places and can see a lot of their composition, so they have a collective term for places that seem to lack something fundamental and feed off of it, but that doesn't give them any greater authority over them. Nor does it particularly give more insight than their own games provide, which can kind of reflect that mages tend to approach such places as outsiders compared to the ones who have a more intuitive and nuanced connection.

Even the Shadow is something where werewolves more readily understand some of the fine distinctions, and that's a realm many mages have a strong interest in (and by far the most accessible).

Oh, also, the Second Edition core is clear that "Lower Depths" does not refer to a common plane, with mages even generally thinking that the things each lacks prevents any of them from being part of a common plane.

[21C Hermit]

…. But is this more due to Mage having a more "scientific" depiction of the setting and thus offering an easier out of universe to explain description of the universe fans latched on, or is it because they are more in the right than other splats in-universe?

Of the two, definitely the former.

[Ur-Than]

Well now that's really interesting, because I'm always a sucker for this sort of interactions in any universe. Of course, some mages must be getting mad with the God-Machine and its working in the Sleeping World but which may have ramifications to the Supernal, the True Fae, the Strix coming from some ill-defined Lower Depth plane etc. And that's without counting all the cults, from Demonic worshippers to Ordo Dracul researchers and the like mudding things up left and right...

Honestly, I'm really glad I started this thread, now I'm pumped up for MAge (if OPP gives the go to Agate Studio to translate more of their stuff. Whoever's having this power, if you read this, please do so!)

[Tessie]

This thread and another about a Let's Read of Mummy the Curse makes me wonder if Mage is a must read to udnerstand the rest of the CoD (with its apparent planification of Lower Depths, etc.) since it seems to be able to impact a lot of the universe (where do the Strix comes? What is Hell? etc.).

None of the information you get in Mage actually matters in the contexts of the other games. Let's say you play Mummy and knows that Duat is a Lower Depth. So what? Now you know how mages classifies Duat, but that's it. That really doesn't say anything about Duat.

But is this more due to Mage having a more "scientific" depiction of the setting and thus offering an easier out of universe to explain description of the universe fans latched on, or is it because they are more in the right than other splats in-universe?

The former but often perceived as the latter. Mage (the game) doesn't present any information about the specialties of the other games that you wouldn't get from reading those games. And mages (the splat) generally don't know more about stuff than the experts that belong to other splats. An Ordo Dracul elder who's mastered a few Coils is a much better source for information on vampirism than a mage who's studied vampires from the outside. And mages straight up wouldn't know anything about Duat that they haven't been told second hand (and generally that would be mummies).

[Isator Levi]

And mages straight up wouldn't know anything about Duat that they haven't been told second hand (and generally that would be mummies).

I wonder, I understand that Mummy Second Edition presents certain devils that reside at the edge of Duat. Can they enter the world? Mages might be able to call them over in a similar manner to other Lower Depths creatures.

Mind, Dark Eras: To The Strongest depicts the mage tradition that resided in ancient Egypt as having a lineage of knowledge that went back to the Nameless Empire. Delving into the Atheneum might reveal records of stories about the cosmology conveyed by the Shan'iatu.

Still, lots of important information comes from interviewing people.

Well now that's really interesting, because I'm always a sucker for this sort of interactions in any universe. Of course, some mages must be getting mad with the God-Machine and its working in the Sleeping World but which may have ramifications to the Supernal, the True Fae, the Strix coming from some ill-defined Lower Depth plane etc. And that's without counting all the cults, from Demonic worshippers to Ordo Dracul researchers and the like mudding things up left and right...

Honestly, I'm really glad I started this thread, now I'm pumped up for MAge (if OPP gives the go to Agate Studio to translate more of their stuff. Whoever's having this power, if you read this, please do so!)

Sometimes, but it should be remembered that Mage is not the big crossover game. There's a lot in the world to occupy their attention besides those in other games (including those things exclusive to them) and there are often more direct concerns from other mages.

[TempleBuilder]

Well now that's really interesting, because I'm always a sucker for this sort of interactions in any universe.

I have a feeling you will be very interested in the contagion chronicle’s player guide. It has the basic crossover information for everyone, and something like two thirds is details on how mage interacts with other gamelines. This information is not is any Mage books. Or at least, not to anywhere near the same level of detail.

Of course, some mages must be getting mad with the God-Machine and its working in the Sleeping World but which may have ramifications to the Supernal, the True Fae, the Strix coming from some ill-defined Lower Depth plane etc. And that's without counting all the cults, from Demonic worshippers to Ordo Dracul researchers and the like mudding things up left and right...

And this is where things get complicated, fast. (Warning, I’ve only read a bit of Demon) The God-Machine is well hidden, even to Mages. A Mage might find a piece of Infrastructure, but there is no guarantee they will understand what they are seeing is something unnatural, and even less of a guarantee of our hypothetical mage realizing that it’s just one part of larger whole. If a piece of Infrastructure isn’t doing something supernatural at the moment, a Mage could walk by none the wiser. The God-Machine also seems to have discovered a way to fool Mage’s general “I think something weird is happening” sense, in the use of Cover. Cover can absolutely beat a Mages information gathering tools, which is rather impressive on its own right. Note that it’s offhandedly mentioned that the God-Machine does work with Mage’s own villains the Exarchs. The Seers of the Throne (the Exarchs main Mage pawns) are occasionally asked to help a Angel do it’s thing, and sometimes, a Angel shows up to help the Seers. This hinted to be a alliance of convenience, because the Exarchs want roughly the same thing as the God-Machine, the status quo to stay the status quo, and both have things they can’t do that the other can.

As for the rest, well yeah. That’s only some of the craziness Mages have deal with on a regular basis. Bring in Spirits, Half Human Hunter Spirits and their cults, Ghosts, Ghosts that eat other Ghosts, this random shop/tomb you are sure wasn’t there yesterday, but everyone else says it was, someone’s bad dreams being contagious, just some random someone preforming miracles, other Mages, an seemingly new type of Lower Depth Entity showing up in your office demanding protection, and someone who you think has three arms and a broken soul. And that’s ignoring the Supernal stuff. Rogue Cannibal Time Lines, ruins from both before the Universe began and the far future, at the same time, some Abyssal thing that burrows into peoples flesh to give them power, your local Hierarch being a jerk, and High Speech in the foam of your boss’s morning coffee. It can be a bit much. (See Isator Levi‘s comments on needing to curate how much information you receive at one time.)

Honestly, I'm really glad I started this thread, now I'm pumped up for MAge (if OPP gives the go to Agate Studio to translate more of their stuff. Whoever's having this power, if you read this, please do so!)

I’m glad we were able to help you!

Still, lots of important information comes from interviewing people.

I want to emphasize this. Mages are good at figuring out how individual things work, and have a good general idea of the setting, but they definitely don’t know everything. (Not that that prevents them from assuming they do in fact know everything)

Sometimes, but it should be remembered that Mage is not the big crossover game. There's a lot in the world to occupy their attention besides those in other games (including those things exclusive to them) and there are often more direct concerns from other mages.

This is also pretty true. Don’t misunderstand, Mage is pretty good for crossover, but it’s not the main focus. Mage doesn’t need other the games, besides maybe information on the Underworld and the Shadow. You can have a very full and exciting game using nothing but the basic Mage cosmology. I recommend using other gamelines as either a dedicated focus for the game, or as a seasoning. Not both. But hey, that’s just my opinion. You do you.

[Ur-Than]

Yeah, each line is independant. But I think one of the strength of CoD (even more so than WoD that i) is the fact that you can decide to mix the lines and it'll work.

Regarding Contagion... I do want it, but I'm holding out hope it'll be translated someday. And the more lines are translated, the greater the chances that it'll be and also the Dark Eras.

[TempleBuilder]

… the Dark Eras aren’t translated? Oh, well, they Really, Really should be, because they are great. I suppose that makes sense since Mage itself isn’t translated. And Mage probably is very hard to translate due to it being very complicated at times. But still, that sucks.

Edit: I reread the original post for this thread. I’m silly, because you said which books are going to be translated.

[Ur-Than]

Yeah, so far we only have the Requiem 2e gameline (and not all the books at that - Core, Reap the Storm, A Thousand Years of Night, Half-Damned, Secret of the Covenant and Guide to the Night) and Demon (Core, Demon's Seed, GMRU and Interfaces).

So Dark Eras are kind of hard to translate so far

[jerkajerka]

I have a feeling you will be very interested in the contagion chronicle’s player guide. It has the basic crossover information for everyone, and something like two thirds is details on how mage interacts with other gamelines. This information is not is any Mage books. Or at least, not to anywhere near the same level of detail.

Just want to say thank you for recommending this... sadly I did not know it existed. Just recently got the PDF, which has now given my players at least 50 Things To See And Do In The Fallen World (And Beyond)... none of which they'll survive

[Zooroos]

Yeah, so far we only have the Requiem 2e gameline (and not all the books at that - Core, Reap the Storm, A Thousand Years of Night, Half-Damned, Secret of the Covenant and Guide to the Night) and Demon (Core, Demon's Seed, GMRU and Interfaces).

So Dark Eras are kind of hard to translate so far

Mmm, perhaps they could be translated as individual Eras? OPP have already tried this with most of the Dark Eras chapters, so I think it's definitely doable. I cannot say if that would be a profitable option, however.

P.S.: I have experience with running crossovers and with mages in particular. DM me if you want to chat more about it.