Cauthon's Homebrew Hub

[Cauthon]

Defeating him probably requires Ascending in a major way that carefully keeps the Aeons within human parameters, but redefined into something neutral at worst. Substituting it for Death of the Endless or Death of Discworld would be a win for the ages.

I know the Ententes aren't an acknowledged Thing in 2e, but I like to think the Legacy is either the pet project of a Siddha, or very deliberately shielded from them. Them being the Pawns in a long-term plan to Ascend via replacing an Aeon seems like a good storyhook.

The third Prime Attainment is insanely powerful. With it, a high Gnosis mage can navigate areas with a strong Ecstatic Wind without insane amounts of preparation. Which means they can deny the will of the planet or cosmos to a major degree, which is a godlike feat. I think any mage who knows the Astral well would think "WTF!?", whereas any archmage would start looking into them as someone else's violation of the Pax Arcana.

Heh, hopefully that compensates for their semi-weak Initiate and Apprentice Prime Attainments. Good for exploring the far dream-realms, good for keeping safe when warring in the Astral, absolutely useless anywhere else.

On a side note, have they ever read the minds of these things ? They have Mental Shield, which should filter out any harmful or forbidden knowledge, so it could prove useful.

I hadn't considered it. I'll need to re-read the Typhonide entry, but are they actually sentient enough to have meaningful information? I always kinda assumed they were task-driven automata. Which, admittedly, you could probably gain contextual scraps of information from...

[Cauthon]

In the Soul Cage actual play, 1e Soul Marks gets used pretty frequently to assess what Legacy NPCs and characters are part of. You can't really do that with 2e's version, since by default you can only see powerful Attainments of powerful Mages, and even with the Reach effect you can only detect the lower levels on an untethered soul. Would it be reasonable to add a Reach effect (+2, probably, since it's basically an extension of the pre-existing one) to allow you to see the Legacy marks on anyone you cast it on? Or make it a conjunctive effect with Prime, leveraging Prime's purview of symbolism to identify the underlying archetype of a given Legacy?

[KaiserAfini]

In the Soul Cage actual play, 1e Soul Marks gets used pretty frequently to assess what Legacy NPCs and characters are part of. You can't really do that with 2e's version, since by default you can only see powerful Attainments of powerful Mages, and even with the Reach effect you can only detect the lower levels on an untethered soul. Would it be reasonable to add a Reach effect (+2, probably, since it's basically an extension of the pre-existing one) to allow you to see the Legacy marks on anyone you cast it on? Or make it a conjunctive effect with Prime, leveraging Prime's purview of symbolism to identify the underlying archetype of a given Legacy?

I would say Death 1 for examining the soul and Prime 1 (Supernal Vision with a specialized focus) would do the trick.

Studying the soul with the Focused Sight of a subtle Arcanum could also work. Opacity is their highest unlocked Attainment's tier, each level of Surface Information reveals one Attainment and Deep Information reveals its purpose. But each couched in the Arcanum's specialty:

Death: The objective or end goal this Attainment / Legacy was made for

Fate: The intent behind it

Mind: Visions of the memories that made them internalize the Attainment or complete the initiation

Spirit: The Resonance of each one

Prime: The aspect of the Truth the Attainment embodies or the Truth it embdies as a whole. The Perfected Adepts, for example, would have "elevate the mind by purifying the body of distractions"

A dramatic failure could make the mage look past the soul, seeing the Ones Before. Then get some kind of warning shot or condition that clearly drives home the idea of "this is not a safe way to view this". Those too Obsessive would likely start down the path of the Echo Walker.

[Satchel]

In the Soul Cage actual play, 1e Soul Marks gets used pretty frequently to assess what Legacy NPCs and characters are part of. You can't really do that with 2e's version, since by default you can only see powerful Attainments of powerful Mages

Remember that the Third Attainment in 2e is equivalent to the Second Attainment in 1e and that mages tend to rush up the Gnosis ladder compared to other splats' Supernatural Potency Traits. I'd put more money on "Soul Marks lets you identify the Legacy Attainment of a mage learned enough in its practices to initiate new members" as the intended reading than "Soul Marks can only identify the Legacies of Powerful Mages if it's not used on an unattached soul."

[Cauthon]

Snip

I like this, mysterious Soul Marks as a Mystery could be fun. Especially if you dedicate a chapter to the players doing their homework on the Legacies they want to join. Are the Sovereigns really on the up-and-up? Are the Sphynxes actually scrambling information into Pancryptia as subtle Banishers? How do Scelesci Legacies "look" different than normal ones? Or the Ticktock Men, inundated to both Temporal paradox and Paradox paradox?

Remember that the Third Attainment in 2e is equivalent to the Second Attainment in 1e and that mages tend to rush up the Gnosis ladder compared to other splats' Supernatural Potency Traits. I'd put more money on "Soul Marks lets you identify the Legacy Attainment of a mage learned enough in its practices to initiate new members" as the intended reading than "Soul Marks can only identify the Legacies of Powerful Mages if it's not used on an unattached soul."

So you read it as "Soul Marks can always tell you that someone is part of a Legacy, and those marks are distinct enought to be able to identify the broad Legacy they belong to. However, the spell can only tell you what specific Attainments they know under the listed conditions". Is that correct? A Guardian could use it on a junior Mystagog to identify them as being part of the Unfogotten Scions (assuming the Guardian has encountered the Scions before), but wouldn't be able to identify their known Attainments except under the scenarios outlined by the spell?

[Satchel]

So you read it as "Soul Marks can always tell you that someone is part of a Legacy, and those marks are distinct enought to be able to identify the broad Legacy they belong to. However, the spell can only tell you what specific Attainments they know under the listed conditions". Is that correct? A Guardian could use it on a junior Mystagog to identify them as being part of the Unfogotten Scions (assuming the Guardian has encountered the Scions before), but wouldn't be able to identify their known Attainments except under the scenarios outlined by the spell?

More "an initiate to the Legacy has not altered the shape of their soul enough for it to show while their soul is inside them, but any mage who is far enough into their Legacy to spread it can be identified."

I will add that the mechanic for identifying Legacy Attainments comes from the bit in Left-Hand Path that has the same limitation:

The Death • spell “Soul Marks” allows a mage to see the relative health of a soul, including any derangements or if the target has made a soul stone. It is not able to detect the Wisdom level of the target. Both it and the Prime • spell “Supernal Vision” allow the caster to detect Legacies of the people they scrutinize, but only if the subject has developed at least the second attainment. Even then, these spells don’t show what the subjects’ attainments actually do. If the caster has identified a Legacy before, however, and knows the “shape” it makes when revealed by her magic, she can try to identify other souls with the same attainments with a successful Intelligence + Empathy roll while using the same spells. Experienced Censors and Sentinels learn to recognize the attainments of known foes, and the Guardians of the Veil sometimes keep the captured soul stones of Nefandi under lock and key instead of destroying them, just to allow their agents to recognize those Legacies should they reoccur.

There's a sidebar on the page after that talking about how Legacy marks are subtle, which is also where the mechanic for spotting Legacies at the lower-level Attainments requiring the soul to be free-floating comes from.

Like, the base intention of the spell is very much more "you can spot a mage who has advanced their Legacy past the starting line, or identify a soul that belonged to a mage with a Legacy" before "Soul Marks tells you what Legacy a mage belongs to." It tells you that the mage has a Third Attainment, which you can leverage into a basis for identifying Legacy Attainment(s) you've seen the Marks of before — possibly the intention is that in 2e this is managed through Focused Mage Sight rather than an Intelligence + Empathy roll.

[Cauthon]

More "an initiate to the Legacy has not altered the shape of their soul enough for it to show while their soul is inside them, but any mage who is far enough into their Legacy to spread it can be identified."

Really? I kinda assume the Initiation to be the part that does the greatest volume of change to your soul - Initiation permenantly attunes you to the Legacy's archetype, and everything else is just building off it. Like clear-cutting and leveling a stretch of land before you construct a house; everything that follows after would be what draws the eye, but the worked terrain is what determines the parameters.

Remember that the Third Attainment in 2e is equivalent to the Second Attainment in 1e and that mages tend to rush up the Gnosis ladder compared to other splats' Supernatural Potency Traits. I'd put more money on "Soul Marks lets you identify the Legacy Attainment of a mage learned enough in its practices to initiate new members" as the intended reading than "Soul Marks can only identify the Legacies of Powerful Mages if it's not used on an unattached soul."

I will add that the mechanic for identifying Legacy Attainments comes from the bit in Left-Hand Path that has the same limitation:

There's a sidebar on the page after that talking about how Legacy marks are subtle, which is also where the mechanic for spotting Legacies at the lower-level Attainments requiring the soul to be free-floating comes from.

Like, the base intention of the spell is very much more "you can spot a mage who has advanced their Legacy past the starting line, or identify a soul that belonged to a mage with a Legacy" before "Soul Marks tells you what Legacy a mage belongs to." It tells you that the mage has a Third Attainment, which you can leverage into a basis for identifying Legacy Attainment(s) you've seen the Marks of before — possibly the intention is that in 2e this is managed through Focused Mage Sight rather than an Intelligence + Empathy roll.

Ah, I've never read LHP, that explains some of my lack of context. I should clarify that my intent was entirely for the "Sentinel and Censor are trained to recognize known marks" use rather than "Instantly know that this person is Left Handed". A Mage interested in Legacies in general, but not wanting to be a soul-thief, for example, would have a reasonable motivation to be non-invasively analyzing Mages of every Legacy and every level of Initiation, to compare how the shaping process actually affects things.

[TempleBuilder]

Sorry for the absence, finals have caught up to me.

Anyways, uh sorry if you are over this already, but I have suggestions for yantras for the Order of the Iron Tower.
I think a more powerful Concentration is appropriate, as a +3.
One ripped from Changeling 2e would be having a Willpower pool over Half as a +2.
Mental Conditions could also be yantras.
The stereotypical psionic poses could also be a fun action Yantra of +1

[Cauthon]

Sorry for the absence, finals have caught up to me.

Good luck! Hope you do well. College finals?

Anyways, uh sorry if you are over this already, but I have suggestions for yantras for the Order of the Iron Tower.
I think a more powerful Concentration is appropriate, as a +3.
One ripped from Changeling 2e would be having a Willpower pool over Half as a +2.
Mental Conditions could also be yantras.
The stereotypical psionic poses could also be a fun action Yantra of +1

Added, thanks!

[TempleBuilder]

Adorjan/ ecstatic wind followers? Well ok then. I imagine many go rapt eventually, eventually succeeding at removing their individuality by collapsing their connection to the Temenos. Let’s see, physical exertion as ecstatic practice, check. Space/Life? Hmm. I don’t know. For theme alone, I’d say something like Matter or Death, putting themselves in a state connection to everything. The problem is Matter is very external, while the legacy feels more internal. Death is at least in part the annihilation of the self, and it makes sense they would have it. It could produce that silent wind effect as a damage option, I think. No move faster option though. I think it might be also worth mentioning that Death can be used to erode ones sense of self in a parallel to Mind spells. Maybe grant conditions like soul shocked, or transfer it.

Also yeah, College finals. (Mostly term papers right now.)

As a side note that probably should be on my own thread, what would you say is the best arcana for Gravity based “music of the spheres”, and professional Monster makers? Forces for the first, and Life for the second, but like what would be the other?

[Cauthon]

Adorjan/ ecstatic wind followers? Well ok then. I imagine many go rapt eventually, eventually succeeding at removing their individuality by collapsing their connection to the Temenos. Let’s see, physical exertion as ecstatic practice, check. Space/Life? Hmm. I don’t know. For theme alone, I’d say something like Matter or Death, putting themselves in a state connection to everything. The problem is Matter is very external, while the legacy feels more internal. Death is at least in part the annihilation of the self, and it makes sense they would have it. It could produce that silent wind effect as a damage option, I think. No move faster option though. I think it might be also worth mentioning that Death can be used to erode ones sense of self in a parallel to Mind spells. Maybe grant conditions like soul shocked, or transfer it.

Started as a thought exercise in how a Legacy would form around the Inferior Arcana of a Path, without that Arcana becoming the Ruling Arcana of the Legacy. Like with the Order of the Iron Tower and The Etnan Legion. The Thyrsus view of Mind VS the Mastigoian view of Space-as-chains struck a chord with me.

I may have stuck too closely to Life as the optional track, in order to make it firmly a Thyrsus legacy. Shucking that isn't something I'll shirk from, although it may change the general thrust of things.

It's definately an internal Legacy, with the main external portion coming from inflicting their enlightened lightness-of-being on other people. Death would probably be the best route for that, you're right. Capstone of Forge No Chains combined with Empty Presence is actually a very good Adorjani combo; unseen and never forming attachments. Running to Forever -as in running from your problems- is a weak segue into never needing rest anyway.

Also yeah, College finals. (Mostly term papers right now.)

Hope they go well. What major, if you don't mind my asking?

As a side note that probably should be on my own thread, what would you say is the best arcana for Gravity based “music of the spheres”, and professional Monster makers? Forces for the first, and Life for the second, but like what would be the other?

Throw musings here whenever you want, I enjoy it.

Forces is the immediate Gravity-Arcana, which also pairs well with the harmonics view of the world. The paired Arcana -regardless of which is primary and which is optional- will depend on where you want to go with it.

• Prime will be good as an expression of how symbols align and resonate with each other. The Moon is a helpful midwife to life on earth when trapped in gravity's embrace, but if she was instead hurtling towards us the symbolism would be very different.
• Spirit would follow similarly on the Prime symbolism, but you can make it in the vein of Thrice-Greats and capitalize on the whole "Choir" epithet. Rather than invoking magical tuning forks, you're calling forth personifications of the harmonies to act out their arias.
• Space is a little on-the nose, but it would be an extension of how gravity is more than a physical force -at least in the English lexicon- and how we can be drawn to things by forces as intangible as sympathy.

As for monster makers... Life, Death, Mind, Matter, and Spirit would be my go-to. Really depends on what you mean.

• Are they turning other people into monsters? Life, definately. Mind and Spirit would be the best pairing, for better control, but the other two have applications in Cyborgs or Frankenstien's Monster. Spirit-secondary monsters would largely be Claimed or Hosts, so it will very much make you into a load-bearing boss.
• Are they creating "monsters" from scratch? Matter, and either Death, Mind, or Spirit. Remote Control and Golem are the first thing that come to mind, as does binding lesser Invisible Entities to act like a terra-cota army. A well-supplied Mage can already make legions if given enough time, a Legacy of golem-makers would be very dangerous.
• Full-on Necromancer would be in the vein of the Bokor, so Death and probably Mind.

I'd keep in mind that most of the Arcana can be turned towards abominable ends, so those five are hardly unique. They're just the first thing I go for when I hear "monster maker". Heck, Prime+Mind = Thaumavore!

[KaiserAfini]

Adorjan/ ecstatic wind followers? Well ok then. I imagine many go rapt eventually, eventually succeeding at removing their individuality by collapsing their connection to the Temenos. Let’s see, physical exertion as ecstatic practice, check. Space/Life? Hmm. I don’t know. For theme alone, I’d say something like Matter or Death, putting themselves in a state connection to everything. The problem is Matter is very external, while the legacy feels more internal. Death is at least in part the annihilation of the self, and it makes sense they would have it. It could produce that silent wind effect as a damage option, I think. No move faster option though. I think it might be also worth mentioning that Death can be used to erode ones sense of self in a parallel to Mind spells. Maybe grant conditions like soul shocked, or transfer it.

Also yeah, College finals. (Mostly term papers right now.)

As a side note that probably should be on my own thread, what would you say is the best arcana for Gravity based “music of the spheres”, and professional Monster makers? Forces for the first, and Life for the second, but like what would be the other?

Music of the speheres can be covered in many different angles. The Universal Harmony approach it with an unusual combination of Time and Prime, but the themes and utility come together beautifully. I think a combination of Space and Spirit could be used, representing emotional connection and Resonance. Perhaps thematically inspired by The Music if Eric Zann, as harnessing arcane performances to ward off the Abyss.

[Cauthon]

Music of the speheres can be covered in many different angles. The Universal Harmony approach it with an unusual combination of Time and Prime, but the themes and utility come together beautifully. I think a combination of Space and Spirit could be used, representing emotional connection and Resonance. Perhaps thematically inspired by The Music if Eric Zann, as harnessing arcane performances to ward off the Abyss.

I don't follow comics, but isn't there a DC event where Superman sings Darkseid out of existence with the resonant opposite of the anti-life equation?

Edit: YUP.

[TempleBuilder]

Started as a thought exercise in how a Legacy would from around the Inferior Arcana of a Path, without that Arcana becoming the Ruling Arcana of the Legacy. Like with the Order of the Iron Tower and The Etnan Legion. The Thyrsus view of Mind VS the Mastigoian view of Space-as-chains struck a chord with me.

…Well I like these legacies. Like, a lot.

I may have stuck too closely to Life as the optional track, in order to make it firmly a Thyrsus legacy. Shucking that isn't something I'll shirk from, although it may change the general thrust of things.

It’s absolutely a Thyrsus legacy. Like, it’s almost as Thyrsus as you can get. Life isn’t even a bad fit, I actually really like it. But if you are committed to the legacy being a rejection of the Mastigoian view of space Space, then I think it might be necessary.

It's definately an internal Legacy, with the main external portion coming from inflicting their enlightened lightness-of-being on other people. Death would probably be the best route for that, you're right. Capstone of Forge No Chains combined with Empty Presence is actually a very good Adorjani combo; unseen and never forming attachments. Running to Forever -as in running from your problems- is a weak segue into never needing rest anyway.

Death *might* be able to remove the need to rest. I see it as effectively removing decay from the body, or changing up what naturally removes decay. I don’t think you would ever go to peak condition though. Death healing is weird.

Hope they go well. What major, if you don't mind my asking?

Thanks. Physics. I wanted to know how stars, gravity, and light work.

Throw musings here whenever you want, I enjoy it.

Cool! Thank you! I’m really only at the idea stage right now, and when I put these on my thing, i’d want them to be at least partially written up. I’m glad you enjoy talking about the concept, it really helps.

Forces is the immediate Gravity-Arcana, which also pairs well with the harmonics view of the world. The paired Arcana -regardless of which is primary and which is optional- will depend on where you want to go with it.

• Prime will be good as an expression of how symbols align and resonate with each other. The Moon is a helpful midwife to life on earth when trapped in gravity's embrace, but if she was instead hurtling towards us the symbolism would be very different.
• Spirit would follow similarly on the Prime symbolism, but you can make it in the vein of Thrice-Greats and capitalize on the whole "Choir" epithet. Rather than invoking magical tuning forks, you're calling forth personifications of the harmonies to act out their arias.
• Space is a little on-the nose, but it would be an extension of how gravity is more than a physical force -at least in the English lexicon- and how we can be drawn to things by forces as intangible as sympathy.

• So the idea came from a musing on gravity waves being effectively the literal music of the spheres. Hmm. I like that Spirit Choir idea…I wouldn’t have thought of that. I was initially debating Time or Space, since Gravity kinda messes with spacetime…but people being drawn to each other is certainly a aspect that one could call gravity. Yeah, ok, that’s really helpful. Thanks! (I might just make both now)

As for monster makers... Life, Death, Mind, Matter, and Spirit would be my go-to. Really depends on what you mean.

• Are they turning other people into monsters? Life, definately. Mind and Spirit would be the best pairing, for better control, but the other two have applications in Cyborgs or Frankenstien's Monster. Spirit-secondary monsters would largely be Claimed or Hosts, so it will very much make you into a load-bearing boss.
• Are they creating "monsters" from scratch? Matter, and either Death, Mind, or Spirit. Remote Control and Golem are the first thing that come to mind, as does binding lesser Invisible Entities to act like a terra-cota army. A well-supplied Mage can already make legions if given enough time, a Legacy of golem-makers would be very dangerous.
• Full-on Necromancer would be in the vein of the Bokor, so Death and probably Mind.

I'd keep in mind that most of the Arcana can be turned towards abominable ends, so those five are hardly unique. They're just the first thing I go for when I hear "monster maker".

Sooo, that’s the thing. My idea for them as basically was inspired by some Girl Genius stuff…and a sample creature from some Mage the Ascension stuff that was a very enhanced house-cat that had modified instincts to desire to protect the household, especially kids, from harm. The second variation was basically making a shell a familiar can easily slot into, as I figure that’s what most other mages would want from them. I don’t really see them as stopping themselves from experimenting on people, and really, I imagine they’d produce a metric ton of deviants that way. Actually, yeah, I’d see them as interested in the production of Manticores as Deviant defines them. Mind might be good call, especially if instinct aren’t completely determined by Life.

Edit: Too many good ideas!

[Cauthon]

It’s absolutely a Thyrsus legacy. Like, it’s almost as Thyrsus as you can get. Life isn’t even a bad fit, I actually really like it. But if you are committed to the legacy being a rejection of the Mastigoian view of space Space, then I think it might be necessary.

Ah, it isn't the Mastigoian view seeping in. At least, that wasn't the intent. It's more a associative domino combined with the idea of a Thyrsus and a Mastigos sitting down to talk shop.

"Wait... what do you mean you see Space as chains? That's stupid. It must be the Mind Arcana messing with how you see things; that bloody sphere just makes everything a leash."

Death *might* be able to remove the need to rest. I see it as effectively removing decay from the body, or changing up what naturally removes decay. I don’t think you would ever go to peak condition though. Death healing is weird.

Mmh. True. The other problem is geling it with the themes of the Legacy. It didn't work well in the Life versions either, the symbology is shakey.

Thanks. Physics. I wanted to know how stars, gravity, and light work.

Nice! Never had the head for the required math. Going for Masters/PHD?

Cool! Thank you! I’m really only at the idea stage right now, and when I put these on my thing, i’d want them to be at least partially written up. I’m glad you enjoy talking about the concept, it really helps.

You have very different ideas from what I tend to make - one could politely say my stuff falls into utilitarian or functional more than creative. Your stuff, like the Nimbus Spinners, tend to be more esoteric and far more appropriate to the setting. It's always enlightening to see, and very fun to talk with you about.

Sooo, that’s the thing. My idea for them as basically was inspired by some Girl Genius stuff…and a sample creature from some Mage the Ascension stuff that was a very enhanced house-cat that had modified instincts to desire to protect the household, especially kids, from harm. The second variation was basically making a shell a familiar can easily slot into, as I figure that’s what most other mages would want from them. I don’t really see them as stopping themselves from experimenting on people, and really, I imagine they’d produce a metric ton of deviants that way. Actually, yeah, I’d see them as interested in the production of Manticores as Deviant defines them. Mind might be good call, especially if instinct aren’t completely determined by Life.

Oooof. OK, a GG Spark is a tricky balance to strike. Replicating them -or something similar- is probably best expressed as skill-enhancing Mind, with each practitioner using a different Arcana to represent the field of science they cleave to. Forces-physicists, Life-geneticists, etc. They aren't creating unique magical experiments, they're using their Attainments to make themselves the greatest scientists possible. Require the Interdisciplinary Specialty and Area of Expertise merits, and you can make all kinds of wierd leaps of logic.

Alternatively, stick with Matter-primary as a way to brew potions and "mutagens". You'd probably want Life, but Spell Potion could be a cool thing to base a Legacy around. Make it extend the Dissonance-protection to whatever spell is imbued, maybe? The Kitchen Alchemists from Dark Eras would be a good starting point.

For Familiar-shells, I'd personally go with the Golem-maker thread. Remote Control with the Reach effect makes for easy control over stuff like marionettes, and evolves nicely into Golem. The Optional track of Mind, Spirit, or Death makes the marionettes into the shell proper, preparing the object into something resembling Vasilisa the Beautiful's doll