Dedicated Tools as Yantras

[lbeaumanior]

Greetings,

In our group we are confused about using a dedicated tool as a Path or Order tool while casting.

A mage can apply a limited number of Yantras to a casting per Gnosis value. Does a dedicated tool count as both as a dedicated and whatever Yantra type it is AS A SINGLE YANTRA, or does require two yantra "slots" one as a dedicated and one as a path/order/patron/sympathy/sacrament/persona tool?


Our confusion comes from these texts:

To reflect this,
the number of Yantras she can apply to a given spellcasting pool
is limited by her Gnosis. If she uses one ritual item in many ways,
each individual use counts as one Yantra for this limit.

Effect: Using a Dedicated tool as a Yantra penalizes any
Paradox dice pool by –2; the mage can also use it as a Path or
Order tool.

Mysteriorum Calamitas (••••): Your character has been
granted secrets of techniques which decouple physical objects
from magic. The first magical tool your character uses in a spell
counts as a Dedicated Magical Tool.

When used by its creator as a tool Yantra, a soul stone
also counts as a Dedicated tool.

Once that is complete, using both magical
tools when casting a spell reduces the Paradox pool by three dice
instead of two, and she can use one or both as Path or Order
tools as appropriate, though each Dedicated tool takes up a
Yantra slot.

I am of the opinion that except very specific situations (Egregore 4 level effect, Soul Stone as a tool, 2 dedicated tools) it requires 2 yantra slots. My friend says it is a single Yantra slot as this is an inherent benefit of a Dedicated Tool. I argue that if it always counts as a dedicated tool, then the Egregore merit, the Soul Stone special effect, and having two tools are redundant descriptions of what would be already happening.

Who is right in this case?

[ArcaneArts]

A Dedicated Tool is a single yantra for the purposes of counting yantras. Effects related to it being a dedicated tool are stacked in relation to it acting as one yantra.

[orathaic]

I think an interesting compromise forced by the rules is that you can have a Rod as your dedicated magical tool, and use it for all your spells to gain the paradox reduction benefit. But you will only gain the yantra bonus for spells where a rod would be an appropriate tool.

So it will always take up 1 yantra slot, and always grant the paradox benefit, but only sometimes gives the +1 spellcasting bonus. Forcing you to sometimes choose what to use in a given yantra slot.

[lbeaumanior]

I think an interesting compromise forced by the rules is that you can have a Rod as your dedicated magical tool, and use it for all your spells to gain the paradox reduction benefit. But you will only gain the yantra bonus for spells where a rod would be an appropriate tool.

So it will always take up 1 yantra slot, and always grant the paradox benefit, but only sometimes gives the +1 spellcasting bonus. Forcing you to sometimes choose what to use in a given yantra slot.

Another advantage is the use of a perfected metal tool:

The resonance
between these perfected metals and the Supernal World asso-
ciated with them is stronger than the normal imperfect version
of the metal. When used as a Magical Tool for the appropriate
Path, the mage gains the 9-again quality on her spellcasting.

So you can get +1 Spellcasting bonus, -2 Paradox AND 9-again with something like a Lunargent coin (which it has a mirrored surface and it should also count as both coin and a small mirror).

This trick should only work for Acanthus though.

[ArcaneArts]

Another advantage is the use of a perfected metal tool:



So you can get +1 Spellcasting bonus, -2 Paradox AND 9-again with something like a Lunargent coin (which it has a mirrored surface and it should also count as both coin and a small mirror).

In the sense that it can be used either as a coin or a small mirror, yes, though not as both.

A dedicated tool is supposed to be a major symbol for the mage, so while it is a singular thing, that so much can stack onto is very much the point.

[orathaic]

Another advantage is the use of a perfected metal tool:



So you can get +1 Spellcasting bonus, -2 Paradox AND 9-again with something like a Lunargent coin (which it has a mirrored surface and it should also count as both coin and a small mirror).

This trick should only work for Acanthus though.

I mean, you could also have an enhanced item as your magical tool. Using "As Above, So Below (Prime••)" to give it 9-again, or 8-again with a reach.

But yep, alas it doesn't help you succeed at a spell, only helps get exceptional successes.

[lbeaumanior]

A Dedicated Tool is a single yantra for the purposes of counting yantras. Effects related to it being a dedicated tool are stacked in relation to it acting as one yantra.

ArcaneArts Thanks for your answers, but now I have a doubt regarding perfected materials as magical tools.


If I am an Acanthus, I have as a dedicated tool a lunargent mirror, and I cast a spell to look into my own past. What bonuses apply to me using a single Yantra slot?

1. 9-again as Magic tool of the Acanthus Path.
2. -2 Paradox as Dedicated tool.
3. +1 as a Path tool in a relevant situation.
4. +2 as Lunargent material in a relevant situation.

I am sure that 1 applies to everything because it does not count as part of the Yantra slots.

As per your answer I can certainly apply either 2 and 3 OR 2 and 4 using a single Yantra slot.

But can I add 2, 3, and 4 together as a single Yantra bonus, or I need an extra Yantra slot for a third effect?

To reflect this,
the number of Yantras she can apply to a given spellcasting pool
is limited by her Gnosis. If she uses one ritual item in many ways,
each individual use counts as one Yantra for this limit.

Effect: Each item used as a Yantra adds +1 die to the spellcasting pool.

Mirrors may be actual mirrors, polished plates, or reflect-
ing pools held in containers of the appropriate material.
They represent sight, soul, and the self, and are the Magi-
cal Tool most commonly used when the mage would work
a spell upon herself.

The resonance
between these perfected metals and the Supernal World asso-
ciated with them is stronger than the normal imperfect version
of the metal. When used as a Magical Tool for the appropriate
Path, the mage gains the 9-again quality on her spellcasting.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lunargent is Perfected silver. It has a bluish color not
normally associated with its mundane equivalent and
has a mirrored surface. Like silver, it can be spun into
thin threads. It is sturdier than silver and can be forged
into weapons that do not lose their edge easily. As silver
is associated with Arcadia, so is lunargent. Lunargent
offers a +2 tool Yantra for spells associated with seeing
such as other places, other times, and across the Gauntlet.
Additionally, it reflects things in Twilight.

[Cauthon]

I'm pretty sure 1 and 2 stack with 3 or 4, and 4 supersedes 3. That is, as a single tool the Lunargent mirror provides a +2 Yantra, 9-again, and -2 Paradox

[ArcaneArts]

ArcaneArts Thanks for your answers, but now I have a doubt regarding perfected materials as magical tools.


If I am an Acanthus, I have as a dedicated tool a lunargent mirror, and I cast a spell to look into my own past. What bonuses apply to me using a single Yantra slot?

1. 9-again as Magic tool of the Acanthus Path.
2. -2 Paradox as Dedicated tool.
3. +1 as a Path tool in a relevant situation.
4. +2 as Lunargent material in a relevant situation.

I am sure that 1 applies to everything because it does not count as part of the Yantra slots.

As per your answer I can apply certain either 2 and 3 or 2 and 4 using a single Yantra slot.

But can I add 2, 3, and 4 together as a single Yantra bonus, or I need an extra Yantra slot for a third effect?

Okay, We* might be conflating Yantra Bonuses with what I am going to call Yantra Riders for the purposes of this example.

A good and straightforward example of this is simply the difference between a Tool Yantra and a Dedicated Tool Yantra-the latter is effectively the same as using the former, in that they're both Tool Yantras versus the Dedicated Tool also imparts a benefit regarding the Paradox dice pool, as well as being applicable to a spell as a symbol of the Mage casting in general rather than anything about the spell in specific.

Using just the mirror for now, an Acanthus using a mirror as a yantra versus their personal compact that became dedicated on Awakening as a yantra is going to get the Yantra bonus of +1 to their dice pool, but their dedicated compact can be used for any given spell they cast and offers a -2 to any Paradox pool they accrue, where as the plain old mirror is going to only be applicable for spells that are themed around sight, the soul, the self, or for spells focused on the self.

So, with that squared, let me download Signs onto my work computer and read over the Lunargent bit.

*reads*

Okay, so how Perfected Materials work is that they act as a +2 yantra bonus for spells doing certain things rather than simply the universal +1 for Tool Yantras, and if it aligns with your path, enjoy your 9-Again. Since Lunargent affects seeing other places, times, and across the Gauntlet, It's a +2 Yantra here rather than a +1 Yantra for our spell, and since we have a hypothetical Acanthus, they enjoy 9-again.

The key here is to distinguish things that add to the spellcasting dice pool from things that modify the roll or unrelated dice pools-If it adds dice to the pool, that's the Yantra, if it does anything, that's an additional benefit to using the specific Yantra and not a seperate and distinct Yantra in and of itself.

So, as a quick example, if your Acanthus has a dedicated lunargent mirror (lucky bastard) and they look into their own past, it's a +2 bonus to the dice pool that benefits from 9-Again, with -2 to any Paradox Pool that develops, not +3, and it's all one Yantra. On the other hand, if our Acathus uses the same mirror to cast lightningbolt, lightningbolt, lightningbolt, It's a +1, 9-Again, -2 from Paradox, all as one Yantra. If it's not dedicated, it's a +1 with 9-Again as one Yantra, if a Thyrsus was using it for mirror's specifications, It'd be a +2 alone as one Yantra, and if it was a thyrsus with Dedication on that mirror, It'd be a +2 with -2 from Paradox as one Yantra, and if they were using the dedicated mirror to cast lightningbolt, lightningbolt, lightningbolt, They'd be able to still get a +1 to the spell and -2 to the Paradox as one Yantra.

In all these cases, it's all still one Tool Yantra, it's just that there is a difference between a Path Tool Yantra and a Dedicated Perfected Path-aligned Tool in that the latter has a LOT going on with it-but at the end of the day, they're both Path Tool Yantras. The thing that counts as a yantra is the singular addition to the die pool for spellcasting. Everything else is just gravy.

EDIT: Consider, for our base purposes, a dedicated tool on it's lonesome. The general idea is to have an iconic yantra that you're almost always using because it's so damn versatile, and how that versatility is lost if you have to spend a turn reflexively applying the Tool Bonus and that then you action on the -2 to Paradox, and then come around to the next turn with the case, where you can see where it retains it's iconic nature if both come in with the reflexive use maing it easier to just use any time you go a-casting.

EDIT: Oh, and because I did the broad look, it pays to note that, yes, not all Yantras offer a dice bonus to a spell. The good rule of thumb is that if something is listed as a singular yantra, it's a yantra, but if it's something that's lumped in with a Yantra or is implied to be linked, it's not. A Dedicated Tool is supposed to be an extra special Tool, the Path alignment 9-Again of Perfected metals is listed apart from circumstances where the metals act as a yantra(and in fact the Metals acting as Yantra is treated as an exceptional set of cases rather than it's default) and so is implied to be separate, a basilisk offers no dice but has it's own entry, so it's a Yantra.

EDIT: Final note, yeah, expanding the case of Lunargent vs Mirror as tools, You would apply each as a separate yantra if you wanted both bonuses-but the dedicated tool bonus ala the Paradox benefit would apply not as a Yantra.

*We since we're group-working the problem.

[ArcaneArts]

Don't worry about this one.

[lbeaumanior]

Okay, We* might be conflating Yantra Bonuses with what I am going to call Yantra Riders for the purposes of this example.

A good and straightforward example of this is simply the difference between a Tool Yantra and a Dedicated Tool Yantra-the latter is effectively the same as using the former, in that they're both Tool Yantras versus the Dedicated Tool also imparts a benefit regarding the Paradox dice pool, as well as being applicable to a spell as a symbol of the Mage casting in general rather than anything about the spell in specific.

Using just the mirror for now, an Acanthus using a mirror as a yantra versus their personal compact that became dedicated on Awakening as a yantra is going to get the Yantra bonus of +1 to their dice pool, but their dedicated compact can be used for any given spell they cast and offers a -2 to any Paradox pool they accrue, where as the plain old mirror is going to only be applicable for spells that are themed around sight, the soul, the self, or for spells focused on the self.

So, with that squared, let me download Signs onto my work computer and read over the Lunargent bit.

*reads*

Okay, so how Perfected Materials work is that they act as a +2 yantra bonus for spells doing certain things rather than simply the universal +1 for Tool Yantras, and if it aligns with your path, enjoy your 9-Again. Since Lunargent affects seeing other places, times, and across the Gauntlet, It's a +2 Yantra here rather than a +1 Yantra for our spell, and since we have a hypothetical Acanthus, they enjoy 9-again.

The key here is to distinguish things that add to the spellcasting dice pool from things that modify the roll or unrelated dice pools-If it adds dice to the pool, that's the Yantra, if it does anything, that's an additional benefit to using the specific Yantra and not a seperate and distinct Yantra in and of itself.

So, as a quick example, if your Acanthus has a dedicated lunargent mirror (lucky bastard) and they look into their own past, it's a +2 bonus to the dice pool that benefits from 9-Again, with -2 to any Paradox Pool that develops, not +3, and it's all one Yantra. On the other hand, if our Acathus uses the same mirror to cast lightningbolt, lightningbolt, lightningbolt, It's a +1, 9-Again, -2 from Paradox, all as one Yantra. If it's not dedicated, it's a +1 with 9-Again as one Yantra, if a Thyrsus was using it for mirror's specifications, It'd be a +2 alone as one Yantra, and if it was a thyrsus with Dedication on that mirror, It'd be a +2 with -2 from Paradox as one Yantra, and if they were using the dedicated mirror to cast lightningbolt, lightningbolt, lightningbolt, They'd be able to still get a +1 to the spell and -2 to the Paradox as one Yantra.

In all these cases, it's all still one Tool Yantra, it's just that there is a difference between a Path Tool Yantra and a Dedicated Perfected Path-aligned Tool in that the latter has a LOT going on with it-but at the end of the day, they're both Path Tool Yantras. The thing that counts as a yantra is the singular addition to the die pool for spellcasting. Everything else is just gravy.

EDIT: Consider, for our base purposes, a dedicated tool on it's lonesome. The general idea is to have an iconic yantra that you're almost always using because it's so damn versatile, and how that versatility is lost if you have to spend a turn reflexively applying the Tool Bonus and that then you action on the -2 to Paradox, and then come around to the next turn with the case, where you can see where it retains it's iconic nature if both come in with the reflexive use maing it easier to just use any time you go a-casting.

EDIT: Oh, and because I did the broad look, it pays to note that, yes, not all Yantras offer a dice bonus to a spell. The good rule of thumb is that if something is listed as a singular yantra, it's a yantra, but if it's something that's lumped in with a Yantra or is implied to be linked, it's not. A Dedicated Tool is supposed to be an extra special Tool, the Path alignment 9-Again of Perfected metals is listed apart from circumstances where the metals act as a yantra(and in fact the Metals acting as Yantra is treated as an exceptional set of cases rather than it's default) and so is implied to be separate, a basilisk offers no dice but has it's own entry, so it's a Yantra.

EDIT: Final note, yeah, expanding the case of Lunargent vs Mirror as tools, You would apply each as a separate yantra if you wanted both bonuses-but the dedicated tool bonus ala the Paradox benefit would apply not as a Yantra.

*We since we're group-working the problem.

Thanks!

Quite a detailed answer! Just a bit confused on a tiny part of your text.

Why would a Mirror Tool give a +1 when used to cast lightning bolt? A mirror would not grant this semiotic alignment. What am I missing in that part of the example? I was under the impression that Tools only grant the bonus +1 when symbolically fitting.

[orathaic]

I think some of the confusion comes from

If she uses one ritual item in many ways,
each individual use counts as one Yantra for this limit.

You could use a smypathy yantra to represent the subject your are casting on and also destroy that representation as a sacrificial yantra to get say, +2 for a material sympathy yantra and a +1 for the sacrament. For a total of +3 and two yantra slots.

Similarily, if you had a tool which was both a path toll and an order tool, you could use two yantra slots to get the +1 for the same tool twice (in two different ways) if both were applicable to the spell.

[ArcaneArts]

Thanks!

Quite a detailed answer! Just a bit confused on a tiny part of your text.

Why would a Mirror Tool give a +1 when used to cast lightning bolt? A mirror would not grant this semiotic alignment. What am I missing in that part of the example? I was under the impression that Tools only grant the bonus +1 when symbolically fitting.

That's in the context of it being the Dedicated Tool. If you read the whole section on it in the core, it makes a point that you can use your Dedicated Tool outside of their normal semiotic context, mostly because it's context is more in relation to you as a caster rather than the spell itself.

[lbeaumanior]

That's in the context of it being the Dedicated Tool. If you read the whole section on it in the core, it makes a point that you can use your Dedicated Tool outside of their normal semiotic context, mostly because it's context is more in relation to you as a caster rather than the spell itself.

I am taking of your time here, but truly I am confused. Copying text parts that I think are relevant:

Effect: Each item used as a Yantra adds +1 die to the spellcasting pool.

Effect: Using a Dedicated tool as a Yantra penalizes any
Paradox dice pool by –2; the mage can also use it as a Path or
Order tool.

But where it is implied that a Dedicated tool grants a blank +1 bonus if used as a path or order tool? I would think that the +1 bonus is conditional on being relevant to the symbol it represents.

[orathaic]

That's in the context of it being the Dedicated Tool. If you read the whole section on it in the core, it makes a point that you can use your Dedicated Tool outside of their normal semiotic context, mostly because it's context is more in relation to you as a caster rather than the spell itself.

I am also confused by your conclusion here. It seems like a dedicated magical tool without the appropriate semiotics is a +0 yantra bonus and a -2 paradox reduction. You can still use it for one yantra slot if you want, but now you are trading off the paradox bonus against a larger dice pool.

It calls this out in the section one replacing a lost/destroyed dedicated magical tool - where you must use the new tool in every spell for a month even if it gives a +0 yantra bonus (and it isn't a dedicated magical tool yet, so you don't even get the -2 to paradox).