Dedicated Tools as Yantras

[ArcaneArts]

Core book, Dedicated Tool, literally the first paragrpah:

Each mage has a Dedicated Magical Tool — an item that synchronizes with her Nimbus and that feeds in to her understanding of magic. A Thyrsus who trusts to nature to provide may not have much by way of possessions, but his walking stick is his staff, and he uses it even for spells that do not benefit from its symbolism. A Botswanan Libertine who learned the magic of the Sangoma may tap a rhythm on her drum even when the noise has no bearing on her spells, as the drumming is part of her Nimbus.

Followed up by Tools, First Paragraph, listed effect:

Each mage maintains at least a handful of magical tools, mundane items that have a symbolic link to specific kinds of magic. Almost no mages rely on just a single tool. Even if she only uses magic appropriate to its symbol, it’s too easy to take the tool away from her.
Effect: Each item used as a Yantra adds +1 die to the spellcasting pool.

[lbeaumanior]

Core book, Dedicated Tool, literally the first paragrpah:



Followed up by Tools, First Paragraph, listed effect:

Yes, I read those parts, but my understanding is that the +1 for each item used depends that it aligns with the symbolism, so you get a +1 if you use a coin, mirror, cup, weapon, rod, order tool, patron tool, etc BUT only if it aligns to their respective symbolism.

Otherwise it makes no sense the text that says "Even if she only uses magic appropriate to its symbol" and the mentions that each type of Path or Order tool have a symbolism associated to it...

If it is a blank +1, then what it is the symbolism is used for?

[ArcaneArts]

Yes, I read those parts, but my understanding is that the +1 for each item used depends that it aligns with the symbolism, so you get a +1 if you use a coin, mirror, cup, weapon, rod, order tool, patron tool, etc BUT only if it aligns to their respective symbolism.

Otherwise it makes no sense the text that says "Even if she only uses magic appropriate to its symbol" and the mentions that each type of Path or Order tool have a symbolism associated to it...

If it is a blank +1, then what it is the symbolism is used for?

Again, with emphasis.

A Thyrsus who trusts to nature to provide may not have much by way of possessions, but his walking stick is his staff, and he uses it even for spells that do not benefit from its symbolism. A Botswanan Libertine who learned the magic of the Sangoma may tap a rhythm on her drum even when the noise has no bearing on her spells, as the drumming is part of her Nimbus.

The dedicated tool is intended to be a signature element of your character. The incentives for it are going to lean towards making a tool that you will use enough that people associate you with it, and in fact makes it a part of your Nimbus. There is no reason for the Tool to not operate as intended, even with the context of "This is my favorite wand, there are many like it, but this one is mine." The dedicated tool is allowed to break some of the rules for Tools entirely because it is a Special Tool.

[lbeaumanior]

Again, with emphasis.



The dedicated tool is intended to be a signature element of your character. The incentives for it are going to lean towards making a tool that you will use enough that people associate you with it, and in fact makes it a part of your Nimbus. There is no reason for the Tool to not operate as intended, even with the context of "This is my favorite wand, there are many like it, but this one is mine."

Okay, I see why would you say that, but I think we have returned to my original post then.

My original understanding was that this effect description:

A Thyrsus who trusts to nature to provide may not have much by way of possessions, but his walking stick is his staff, and he uses it even for spells that do not benefit from its symbolism. A Botswanan Libertine who learned the magic of the Sangoma may tap a rhythm on her drum even when the noise has no bearing on her spells, as the drumming is part of her Nimbus.

It is only relevant to say that even that if does not align to the symbolism of the spell, the Dedicated Tool does something, and what is that something? Well, it is a -2 on Paradox rolls. That is why (i think) it also says in Signs of Sorcery that using your soul stone as a dedicated tool makes the effect go to -3 on Paradox rolls.

As far as I can read, there is no justification for a Dedicated Tool giving a blank +1 always, I do agree with you that a Dedicated Tool can simultaneously be Path or Order without requiring another Yantra slot, but I remain unconvinced that the text implies a permanent +1 on all spellcasting rolls if used as a Yantra.

[ArcaneArts]

Okay, I say why would you say that, but I think we have returned to my original post then.

My original understanding was that this effect description:



It is only relevant to say that even that if does not align to the symbolism of the spell, the Dedicated Tool does something, and what is that something? Well, it is a -2 on Paradox rolls. That is why (i think) it also says in Signs of Sorcery that using your soul stone as a dedicated tool makes the effect go to -3 on Paradox rolls.

As far as I can read, there is no justification for a Dedicated Tool giving a blank +1 always, I do agree with you that a Dedicated Tool can simultaneously be Path or Order without requiring another Yantra slot, but I remain unconvinced that the text implies a permanent +1 on all spellcasting rolls if used as a Yantra.

I would otherwise encourage you to read through the Dedicated Tool section of Signs, including related merits and see if the ongoing language about everything really gels with that reading, but at this point, my response at this point is "Whatever." You asked your question, I gave my answer. What you do with it from here is your table.

[Satchel]

As far as I can read, there is no justification for a Dedicated Tool giving a blank +1 always, I do agree with you that a Dedicated Tool can simultaneously be Path or Order without requiring another Yantra slot, but I remain unconvinced that the text implies a permanent +1 on all spellcasting rolls if used as a Yantra.

The most relevant bit Arc is pointing to above, for the record, is the fact that Signs of Sorcery's system for "inverting the power of Dedication" allows you to treat any item bearing your Signature Nimbus as a one-time Path or Order tool, which logically indicates that even things that don't align with the symbolism of an established Path or Order tool type can be used.

Recall that using a Yantra requires a mage to recognize the symbolism it's being used for as relevant to the working, that the corebook highlights the fact that some mages derive the symbolism of gendered principles from certain types of tool, and that one of the playtest scenarios involved a PC cursing a man to grievous enhancement of future injuries and reflected wound by stabbing a coin two times and setting up a fate-based tracker by doing some sleight of hand with that same coin.

This is the bit of Awakened metaphysics that most readily serves as a ground-level explanation for how Path and Order tools emerge and evolve over time and the dice modifier is the smallest nonzero bonus the game allows in a system where a single extra spell factor removes two dice. It makes thematic sense and is mechanically near-negligible; at most, you might argue that the category would make more sense to be described as a Persona bonus like Mana from ley Resonance instead of a Path or Order tool.

[Tessie]

If I am an Acanthus, I have as a dedicated tool a lunargent mirror, and I cast a spell to look into my own past. What bonuses apply to me using a single Yantra slot?

1. 9-again as Magic tool of the Acanthus Path.
2. -2 Paradox as Dedicated tool.
3. +1 as a Path tool in a relevant situation.
4. +2 as Lunargent material in a relevant situation.

My understanding of the Yantra rules (which does different from ArcaneArts and Satchel) is this:

The Acanthus can either use the lunargent mirror as a regular Path Tool (silver being the right material for an Acanthus, and it being a mirror resonates with scrying across time) for a +1 bonus, or according to its lunargent property (scrying across time) for a +2 bonus. Because the specific symbolism tied to the spell is identical in this case (using a reflective surface to scry across time), you could only use it once.
I just realised that mirrors can be used to cast spells on the self. That symbolism means you can use the mirror both as a lunargent Tool and as a Path Tool since the specific symbolism tied to the spell is different in both cases. The downside is that you have to use two different Yantra slots to use it in two different ways.

Since it is a Dedicated Tool, you also gain the -2 Paradox dice penalty. (Even if you can use the Tool in different ways, you only get this effect once.)
Sidenote: If the spell wouldn't have any symbolic ties with the Tool, you could still use it as a +0 Tool Yantra and gain the -2 Paradox dice effect.

And because the mage is an Acanthus, they gain 9-Again for using it as a magical tool. (Again, even if you can use the Tool in different ways, you only get this effect once. Not that 9-Again from different sources stack anyway.)

[orathaic]

My understanding of the Yantra rules (which does different from ArcaneArts and Satchel) is this:

That matches my expectations fairly precisely.

The only thing i'd like to expand on is identity/Nimbus/path and order tools... But i think that is its own thread.

[lbeaumanior]

My understanding of the Yantra rules (which does different from ArcaneArts and Satchel) is this:

I tend to agree with your interpretation on this matter, I must thank ArcaneArts for clarifying the separation of the Dedicated Tool benefit of the tool bonus itself, but I differ on the interpretation of having a blank +1 just for being a tool.

Thanks to all that helped me clarify doubts.

[lnodiv]

Maybe this is a necro, but since this came up in google when I was trying to find Dave's original commentary on the matter, I figure I might as well list that here, since it answers this fairly succinctly across the two posts without asking folks to speculate:

https://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/893054-question-about-the-dedicated-tool?p=893116#post893116

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/mage-the-awakening-2nd-edition-questions.795923/page-12#post-20735902

[ArcaneArts]

I will take my win for being half-right on the ground of the Dedicated Tool benefit being a rider to the yantra.