Lex Magica, Orders, Consilia and not behaving like Seers

[lbeaumanior]

Greetings,

I have a lots of questions regarding the Lex, the Orders, and the Consilium not letting mages act like unmitigated assholes, all the questions are AS FAR AS THE LEX, THE CONSILIUM AND/OR THE ORDERS PERTAIN:

1. A Pentacle Mage is abusing Sleepers as part of researching a Mystery (tormenting them with a Fear or Pain spirit, using Fate magic to ruin their lives, etc), what are my options to stop it? Do I ask them politely? Denounce them to their Order? Tip the Guardians? Sentinels?

2. A Pentacle Mage is abusing Sleepers as part of their personal/professional lives (keeping a boyfriend mentally submissive with Mind magic, making addicts with a new Matter drug, etc), how can I make them stop? Do I ask them politely? Denounce to their Order? Tip the Guardians? Sentinels?

3. Same question as before but a Seer, what are my options? Can I just kill them and inform afterward? Before? If so, to whom do I inform? Is there is a Consilium position or Order (Guardians?) that takes care of these cases?

4. Another supernatural with a society (Vampires, Werewolves, etc) is abusing sleepers, same questions as before, what are my options? Can I just kill them and inform afterward? Before? If so, to whom do I inform? Is there is a Consilium position or Order (Guardians?) that takes care of these cases?

5. A Sleeper is a danger to society (serial killer, child rapist, etc), can I just kill them and inform afterwards? Before? If so, to whom do I inform? Is there is a Consilium position or Order (Guardians?) that takes care of these cases?

Essentially, what are the legal and societal restrains to stop mages from destroying the lives of people around them... the noisy neighbour, the ex that does not want to come back, the boss that did not give me a rise, the pretty thing that I saw in the mall and I must make mine, the asshole that cut me in traffic, etc.

[Cauthon]

Really depends on the Consilium - the Gold laws don't really say much on the topic of Sleepers. Most Pentacle Mages agree that it's their duty to provide Sleepers with the means to Awaken, but very few -even within the same Order- have exactly the same idea of what that entails. And that's honestly the main dividing line between Seers and the Pentacle; giving people the chance to Awaken.

That being said, unless the Mage community in that area has some standing truce or detente with the Seers or Supernaturals, preying in humans will usually result in the Arrow and/or Guardians being dispatched via the Sentinels. A threat to the local Sleepers will likely spill over into the Mages sooner or later, and it disrupts day-to-day anyway.

[ArcaneArts]

Greetings,

I have a lots of questions regarding the Lex, the Orders, and the Consilium not letting mages act like unmitigated assholes, all the questions are AS FAR AS THE LEX, THE CONSILIUM AND/OR THE ORDERS PERTAIN:

1. A Pentacle Mage is abusing Sleepers as part of researching a Mystery (tormenting them with a Fear or Pain spirit, using Fate magic to ruin their lives, etc), what are my options to stop it? Do I ask them politely? Denounce them to their Order? Tip the Guardians? Sentinels?

2. A Pentacle Mage is abusing Sleepers as part of their personal/professional lives (keeping a boyfriend mentally submissive with Mind magic, making addicts with a new Matter drug, etc), how can I make them stop? Do I ask them politely? Denounce to their Order? Tip the Guardians? Sentinels?

3. Same question as before but a Seer, what are my options? Can I just kill them and inform afterward? Before? If so, to whom do I inform? Is there is a Consilium position or Order (Guardians?) that takes care of these cases?

3. Another supernatural with a society (Vampires, Werewolves, etc) is abusing sleepers, same questions as before, what are my options? Can I just kill them and inform afterward? Before? If so, to whom do I inform? Is there is a Consilium position or Order (Guardians?) that takes care of these cases?

4. A Sleeper is a danger to society (serial killer, child rapist, etc), can I just kill them and inform afterwards? Before? If so, to whom do I inform? Is there is a Consilium position or Order (Guardians?) that takes care of these cases?

Essentially, what are the legal and societal restrains to stop mages from destroying the lives of people around them... the noisy neighbour, the ex that does not want to come back, the boss that did not give me a rise, the pretty thing that I saw in the mall and I must make mine, the asshole that cut me in traffic, etc.

To avoid treating people like Seers do.

Keeping in mind that a) I don't have the books that would really address this outside of the 2nd Edition core (from my understanding, that'd be Sanctum and Sigil and The Silver Ladder) and that thus this is going off my understanding and expectation and will play second to anyone who's read the in-depth details of this, and that b) there's a certain amount of looking like the Seers that's going to happen because Hi, Mages are all assholes and terrifying, the answers I have:

The general rule of thumb is that arbitration lets you act first if it's not related to the interests of the Consilium*/Caucus (though you should get the appointed Sentinels aware of it as as soon as possible), but if it is related to the interests, it should be brought to at a Sentinel and deliberated on by them, possibly escalated to the Hierarch and their Counsel if it's particularly dire. If you happen to know any Guardians, Wow, Congrats, also Wow, Be Careful, it also doesn't hurt to get them in on it.

Going specific.

1) Assuming it's not related to the central Mystery, you can act as you think is most responsible, though you are encouraged to seek the aid of Sentinels. If it's part of the central Mystery, it's going to be highly regulated (ostensibly), and so while you want to reach out to the Sentinels, you can expect it to get quicker reaction and for the incident to lead to evaluation on how and why the Counsilium operates.

2) There's a certain amount of "Well, that's business as usual" that goes on here, and telling the Sentinels will probably warrant a careful investigation. The Guardians are more likely to act on this subject, so if you want to really get someone acting on it, you can reach out to the Emissary in the area, but expect your involvement to be scrutinized, even if they let you keep at it. You can also try dealing with it, but depending on how messy it gets, it can become a subject arbitrated by the Consilium in accordance to the Lex Magica.

3) Where the Seers are concerned, there's a cross roads of "Do what you think is most responsible" and "Engaging the Seers foolishly could create problems for the Consilium, so maybe confer with the Sentinels and Adamantine Arrows (and the Guardians after, if you're wanting to be sure) as soon as possible, ideally before initial action." Eagerness to kill a Seer is it's own problem you'd have to deal with, but unless the Consilium has a particular arrangement with the Seers in place (which happens a fair bit more than you'd expect), violence against a Seer is going to weighed more on the tactical implications that any judgmental take.

4) A Sleeper causing trouble is mostly a thing done at your own discretion, though there's no shame in engaging official resources or interested parties in dealing with it (A Sentinel might understandably think it keeps them from their actual responsibilities unless it's really a one and done action, but they also probably keep a running tally of all the people who'd happily facilitate assitance). That said, if dealing with it starts to impede on Consilium business, The Sentinels will probably step in and start working to handle the damage control, and you can expect some kind of clean up for making them get involved. This can change if a Sleeper is messing with an Order's assets in terms of their other sleepers, and one of the reasons why it may be better to hang back is because of any of the political conflict that might emerge from, but by large, Sleepers deal with Sleeper shit, and your side projects are your problems until they stop being such.

The Pentacle isn't not interested in helping out with Sleepers and mitigating problems-but by and large, they've got the big picture to tend with, and a horde of cats who can cast fireball to handle, alongside the occult weirdnesses that they gather around-and on top of that, a mage is very much their own power and resources. If you see a problem to deal with, you can deal with it-you just have to deal with the fallout of doing so, and because of that it can be better to reach out to the organized resources who can handle things.

You might notice I default a lot towards the Sentinels and the general government of Consilium for anything concerning, and not the local Emissary of the Guardians, probably a lot more than expected. A lot of this has to do with the way each Consilium has it's relationship with the Guardians, and the reasonable expectation that anything that gets on the Official Business Ticket will reach the Emissary, who will distribute tasks related to it as they contact agents, but it's also worth noticing that the Guardians have a ritual role of the despised, so it's also just basic occult politeness to not be too quick to call on them. That said, they do tend to be interested in more than what a Consilium is, so eventually a lot of things will still end up on the Guardian's laps.

EDIT: I would deafult to Satchel's answer more than mine, mind.

*Assume that any time I refer to the Consilium, similar enough practices are also in place for an Assembly.

[Satchel]

1. A Pentacle Mage is abusing Sleepers as part of researching a Mystery (tormenting them with a Fear or Pain spirit, using Fate magic to ruin their lives, etc), what are my options to stop it? Do I ask them politely? Denounce them to their Order? Tip the Guardians? Sentinels?

2. A Pentacle Mage is abusing Sleepers as part of their personal/professional lives (keeping a boyfriend mentally submissive with Mind magic, making addicts with a new Matter drug, etc), how can I make them stop? Do I ask them politely? Denounce to their Order? Tip the Guardians? Sentinels?

"Cavalier abuse of Sleepers" as part of one's Obsessions and/or magical practices is literally one of the examples of things that will get you slapped with the Left-Handed label in most Consilia, in additional to being against the general dictates of the Precept of Hubris commonly found among Silver Laws. Sentinels are the typical enforcers of the Lex Magica as appointed by the Hierarch. At its most circumspect, you'd probably get in touch with someone who could pass word on to a Provost, but the Sentinels would be the ones assigned to deal with the matter at any level prior to the Interfector being called upon to do their job.

3. Same question as before but a Seer, what are my options? Can I just kill them and inform afterward? Before? If so, to whom do I inform? Is there is a Consilium position or Order (Guardians?) that takes care of these cases?

3. Another supernatural with a society (Vampires, Werewolves, etc) is abusing sleepers, same questions as before, what are my options? Can I just kill them and inform afterward? Before? If so, to whom do I inform? Is there is a Consilium position or Order (Guardians?) that takes care of these cases?

4. A Sleeper is a danger to society (serial killer, child rapist, etc), can I just kill them and inform afterwards? Before? If so, to whom do I inform? Is there is a Consilium position or Order (Guardians?) that takes care of these cases?

Murder is typically not the first recourse because jumping straight to murder is worse for Wisdom than it is for Integrity, and by the time you have the capacity to kill someone with magic you usually have subtler options available to you.

The Clavigers of the Silver Ladder occasionally serve as envoys to other supernatural beings, and the Susceptors and Emissaries of the Guardians investigate and communicate with the Orders in ways that include finding out and making it known when a mage is up to some inadvisable activities.

Essentially, what are the legal and societal restrains to stop mages from destroying the lives of people around them... the noisy neighbour, the ex that does not want to come back, the boss that did not give me a rise, the pretty thing that I saw in the mall and I must make mine, the asshole that cut me in traffic, etc.

The Precept of the Veil and the way the Nimbus works, coupled with the general institutional incentive for a Consilium to limit the amount of stupid bullshit its members think they can drag to its doors and expect protection.

Brief redirections, boosts to intangible qualities like luck and persuasiveness, and otherwise sticking to above-Falling Wisdom on the default list will generally pass without comment, but if you're doing loud stuff or meddling in a way where other mages will be able to notice you're going to have to be open to the possibility that you might make your case poorly and be charged with a punishment by the council.

[Michael]

The Pentacle are wildly divergent in their ideas of what's legal or moral; so it very much comes down to the specific case.

Pentacle mages come under the Lex Magica, which includes the Precept of Hubris. This covers most abuses of others; though the extent to which it is enforced varies wildly between Consilia. The same more or less applies to caucuses though there it's less an issue of law, and more one of internal discipline.

In general, you don't need to inform anyone of your actions... unless your particular Caucus/Consilium actually does require you to. Though keeping relevant parties in the loop is generally a good idea.

Seers and other supernatural beings aren't generally members of consilia, so they aren't really covered by the Lex. However, killing them is liable to trigger revenge attacks, meaning that an Order caucus or consilium is likely to punish members who do so without forewarning.

To avoid treating people like Seers do.

On some level that's not the problem with the Seers. The problem is that they're Seers.

[lbeaumanior]

Brief redirections, boosts to intangible qualities like luck and persuasiveness, and otherwise sticking to above-Falling Wisdom on the default list will generally pass without comment, but if you're doing loud stuff or meddling in a way where other mages will be able to notice you're going to have to be open to the possibility that you might make your case poorly and be charged with a punishment by the council.

Okay, but what if I start doing low level Mind, Fate and Time effects to destroy a Sleeper life? Or the same effect to attract troubled teenagers to me (and then sexually prey on them)... Even if the effect are what in 1ed was called Coincidental (easy to justify nothing too flashy), it would still be Sleeper abuse.

[Isator Levi]

I think the general tone of mage society would be such that while the general charter of a Consilium will establish the common principle that abuse of Sleepers is wrong, the specifics are the kind of thing that tend to be developed ad hoc and then form precedents for later reference. Hence, a lot of it is going to come down to how well opposing sides argue it before the council. I think it makes for more effective gameplay and narratives more fitting within the Chronicles of Darkness if the bar for what counts as violating the Precept of Hubris is often a lot higher than many people who have not been part of that culture for a long time are comfortable with.

Like, doing harm for the sake of a Mystery, while there are certainly things that cross the line, I'd say there should be several things that can be argued or get established as acceptable pursuits of inquiry for the sake of a greater good. There can be necessary caveats, such as making the experiment controlled to try and minimise harm and collateral damage, but sometimes a mage is within their rights so long as they have the proper permits. I think about something like how parts of the Adamantine Arrow are supposed to outright create ordeals for people to see if it will trigger Awakenings.

And casual mistreatment of people with a touch of magic might be criminal, but I think the standards of mage law will tend to reference that in terms of being odious for profaning the Art more than the human consequence of it. I think it's the kind of thing that would typically be punished with the equivalent of a hefty fine.

Seers of the Throne at least get into that zone of "people who don't participate in the Consilium have no rights". Same will go for a lot of Nameless mages, really.

And for the harm inflicted by things that are not part of mage society... the Consilium isn't even really there to be a form of government for mages, it's certainly not built to be a protective force for Sleepers in general. I'd say you're relatively free to make it your business to deal with outside things that hurt people, but that's entirely your business; other cabals might become involved if you have the proper ties, but there's not some kind of official recourse to deal with it. Adamantine Arrows internally debate over things like whether they should exclusively protect mages or do it for as many as they can, and it can kind of be something that grates against the agendas of the Silver Ladder, but perhaps not the highest priority.

And if you start trouble that comes back on more mages than yourself, then you're probably the criminal under the Lex.

It's a funny thing to look at discussions such as these that refer to the Guardians of the Veil as though they're their own contiguous thing segregated away from mage society rather than, like, members of your cabal. Their own Order book actually effectively made the point about how they're a fairly decentralised group; the Tenets are there to provide a common code to determine what they choose to pursue and how to conduct themselves, but individual Guardians are largely supposed to devise and pursue their own projects. Their caucuses are really more about sharing notes (and sometimes collaborating when something major is in the works), and their leadership largely functions to try and keep different projects unaware of one another from colliding.

You don't raise an objection with "the Guardians", you try to rope in that one Guardian whom you know and have a relationship with.

[Cauthon]

It's a funny thing to look at discussions such as these that refer to the Guardians of the Veil as though they're their own contiguous thing segregated away from mage society rather than, like, members of your cabal. Their own Order book actually effectively made the point about how they're a fairly decentralised group; the Tenets are there to provide a common code to determine what they choose to pursue and how to conduct themselves, but individual Guardians are largely supposed to devise and pursue their own projects. Their caucuses are really more about sharing notes (and sometimes collaborating when something major is in the works), and their leadership largely functions to try and keep different projects unaware of one another from colliding.

You don't raise an objection with "the Guardians", you try to rope in that one Guardian whom you know and have a relationship with.

Speaking only for my interpretation of here, but I tend to refer to "The Guardians" in cases like this almost purely because they have the Interfrector posiition in almost all Consili. Plus, they and the Arrow have the most consistent ideological reasons to volunteer as Sentinels.

The Consilium isn't even really there to be a form of government for mages, it's certainly not built to be a protective force for Sleepers in general.

This is a REALLY important point. The Consillium, at the end of the day, exists as part of the "Armed Society" mentality. You follow the rules to be part of a semi-functional community, sure, but at the core it's the mage who can disintigrate you with a thought (Or who has influence over mages who can) that's likely calling the shots. When everyone has nukes, it's the volume of nukes you have that dictates terms.

[KaiserAfini]

Pretty much. Why does keeping an eye on a mage's Wisdom matters ? Because Rapt are bad for everybody.

Why does the Duel Arcane exist ? To solve things without escalating to magical violence. Why does the Right of Nemesis exist ? In case the previous option fails, it minimizes casualties.

Why does the Consilia exist ? To guarantee there is enough cohesion for mage society to function and be able to respond to threats like Banishers, Rapt, Seers or any other horrors the cosmos throws at it.

Its job is to mediate, generally keep things civil and facilitate common safety. It can take a more proactive role in governance, should there be enough interest by all parties involved. The Bronze Laws are there to create that flexibility, but that is going beyond the required minimum.

[ArcaneArts]

Okay, but what if I start doing low level Mind, Fate and Time effects to destroy a Sleeper life? Or the same effect to attract troubled teenagers to me (and then sexually prey on them)... Even if the effect are what in 1ed was called Coincidental (easy to justify nothing too flashy), it would still be Sleeper abuse.

1) Why are you doing that.

2) Also, what a phenomenal waste of infinite cosmic power, even amongst people who would use the fires of creation the same way a man might use an exceptionally sharp rock.

3) Precept of Hubris again, as Satchel pointed out, You get caught doing that, it's a problem the Consilium or dominant Caucus will deal with. Of course, you have to get caught doing that in the first place, and caught in a situation where there are no bigger fish to fry.

Pentacle mages being better than Seer Mages does not exclude them from being monsters who occasionally take what is unattended.

[lbeaumanior]

It's a funny thing to look at discussions such as these that refer to the Guardians of the Veil as though they're their own contiguous thing segregated away from mage society rather than, like, members of your cabal. Their own Order book actually effectively made the point about how they're a fairly decentralised group; the Tenets are there to provide a common code to determine what they choose to pursue and how to conduct themselves, but individual Guardians are largely supposed to devise and pursue their own projects. Their caucuses are really more about sharing notes (and sometimes collaborating when something major is in the works), and their leadership largely functions to try and keep different projects unaware of one another from colliding.

You don't raise an objection with "the Guardians", you try to rope in that one Guardian whom you know and have a relationship with.

I dont have all the books, but I was envisioning the Guardians as some sort of secret police with messianic overtones, and that is the impression I got: Proved Nefandus? Allow me to use my trusty dagger. Seer? Let's interrogate them followed by swift execution.

[lbeaumanior]

1) Why are you doing that.

2) Also, what a phenomenal waste of infinite cosmic power, even amongst people who would use the fires of creation the same way a man might use an exceptionally sharp rock.

3) Precept of Hubris again, as Satchel pointed out, You get caught doing that, it's a problem the Consilium or dominant Caucus will deal with. Of course, you have to get caught doing that in the first place, and caught in a situation where there are no bigger fish to fry.

Pentacle mages being better than Seer Mages does not exclude them from being monsters who occasionally take what is unattended.

For the same reason that the Seers do it, the Mage felt like it, feels superior to Sleepers.


That is why I asked how to stop Pentacle mages from behaving as Seers. As far as I can see it, it is the Sleeper society that is must vulnerable, a singular mage can cause untold drama trying to live comfortably without bringing Paradox or magical warfare into question.

Although the Orders differ a lot on goals and means, the way they treat Sleepers (and general society) it is what will aid or hinder the Exarchs, you can strengthen human misery, ignore it, or ameliorate it; first option makes the Exarch rule stronger, second option leaves the status quo, and the third one weakens their power.

[ArcaneArts]

It's a funny thing to look at discussions such as these that refer to the Guardians of the Veil as though they're their own contiguous thing segregated away from mage society rather than, like, members of your cabal. Their own Order book actually effectively made the point about how they're a fairly decentralised group; the Tenets are there to provide a common code to determine what they choose to pursue and how to conduct themselves, but individual Guardians are largely supposed to devise and pursue their own projects. Their caucuses are really more about sharing notes (and sometimes collaborating when something major is in the works), and their leadership largely functions to try and keep different projects unaware of one another from colliding.

You don't raise an objection with "the Guardians", you try to rope in that one Guardian whom you know and have a relationship with.

As a general rule, it's open knoweldge that if you know a Guardian, that's who you work with-but the point of the role of Emissary with Guardians is that if you don't personally know a Guardian, there's still someone you can go to and say "Hey, I have this concern that Father Kiddick is being a prick with his magic to kids, could you have someone check on it/do something about it", because the point of the Emissary is to be the public face of the secret police and otherwise make sure that cases do get assigned-and they DO get assigned.

I dont have all the books, but I was envisioning the Guardians as some sort of secret police with messianic overtones, and that is the impression I got: Proved Nefandus? Allow me to use my trusty dagger. Seer? Let's interrogate them followed by swift execution.

It should be noted that, by virtue of the Crimson Veil, the Guardians are not just trained killer who have that as their end answer all the time. Part of their job is to also argue mercy where others might not-Sins committed to a just end may grant Wisdom, but that doesn't mean one just jumps into sin. A Seer may just be someone who didn't really have options, or may be questioning the Pyramid, or any number of other things.

Like, if anyone's hands are going to get dirty, The Guardians would rather it be their hands, but a big part of what they do is try and keep people from those scenarios in the first place, and to guide people to where they'll do best otherwise.

Also, Nefandus aren't a thing here. Closest is the Scelesti, and even then there's a lot of substantive differences.

[TempleBuilder]

Although the Orders differ a lot on goals and means, the way they treat Sleepers (and general society) it is what will aid or hinder the Exarchs, you can strengthen human misery, ignore it, or ameliorate it; first option makes the Exarch rule stronger, second option leaves the status quo, and the third one weakens their power.

Minor point of order, the Seers aren’t there for Human misery, they just exploit it. They are there to keep humanity sleeping, whatever that takes. That can take the form of destroying lives, but it also can take the form of bubble wrapping humanity from anything that might make them think for themselves.

[ArcaneArts]

For the same reason that the Seers do it, the Mage felt like it, feels superior to Sleepers.


That is why I asked how to stop Pentacle mages from behaving as Seers. As far as I can see it, it is the Sleeper society that is must vulnerable, a singular mage can cause untold drama trying to live comfortably without bringing Paradox or magical warfare into question.

Although the Orders differ a lot on goals and means, the way they treat Sleepers (and general society) it is what will aid or hinder the Exarchs, you can strengthen human misery, ignore it, or ameliorate it; first option makes the Exarch rule stronger, second option leaves the status quo, and the third one weakens their power.

An armed society is a polite society. As a general rule, the Pentacle Alliance Mages are in the Pentacle Alliance because they believe in the things that make up the Order's public ethos (if not the larger sect's precepts), and that does a lot (most mages are not deliberately assholes, and more negligent and uncaring about the aftereffects rather than actively malicious), but the big thing for anyone starts getting a little Left-handed with their magic is the knowledge that if they get found out (in their society of people whose entire monstrous repetoire is finding out what going on with the spookies they can inherently feel), there's a whole fucking heaping helping of canned whoop-ass above and around them.

So, if per chance there is some plunker who just has nothing better on a Saturday night than continue on a string of date rapes (and as a mage, even an asshole mage, there's a lot), you do what you can to make sure no one's mage sight picks up putting that "All I can think about is fucking that person and I don't know why that is but I can't stop" spell you just cast, and hope that anyone who does catch you gets it, because if it hits the Sentinels or Guardians, there's a whole heaping helping of canned wizard whoop-ass coming their way.

THe main way Pentacle mages stop from behaving like Seers is that, in general, they mostly don't just view all of the world as theirs for the taking, and otherwise keep their Eyes open and make sure to do something when someone says something. It does a whole lot, actually

But again, at the end of the day, mages are monsters. Part of the point is that with all that power comes the revelation of what one would actually do with all that power.