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Lex Magica, Orders, Consilia and not behaving like Seers

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  • #16
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    So, if per chance there is some plunker who just has nothing better on a Saturday night than continue on a string of date rapes (and as a mage, even an asshole mage, there's a lot), you do what you can to make sure no one's mage sight picks up putting that "All I can think about is fucking that person and I don't know why that is but I can't stop" spell you just cast, and hope that anyone who does catch you gets it, because if it hits the Sentinels or Guardians, there's a whole heaping helping of canned wizard whoop-ass coming their way.
    Plus, by the time you hit Disciple in Mind, Spirit, or Death, you're like two spells away from magic-ing yourself up a partner. If you're that horny all the time, find an willing Invisibile Entity who'll act out your fantasies with you in exchange for favors/Essence. Chances are, they'll hit your kinks better on top of being the more pragmatic choice.

    Now money, and other social abuses... I dunno, use Mind to become the best in your field


    Monkish Asexual.

    I make Legacies when I'm bored. They're of middling quality, but have a look if you're interested. Advice and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
      Plus, by the time you hit Disciple in Mind, Spirit, or Death, you're like two spells away from magic-ing yourself up a partner. If you're that horny all the time, find an willing Invisibile Entity who'll act out your fantasies with you in exchange for favors/Essence. Chances are, they'll hit your kinks better on top of being the more pragmatic choice.

      Now money, and other social abuses... I dunno, use Mind to become the best in your field
      Or take a journey to the lust part of your Oneiros, and literally enjoy the people of your dreams. Any Mage can do it.


      To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

      So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
        Plus, by the time you hit Disciple in Mind, Spirit, or Death, you're like two spells away from magic-ing yourself up a partner. If you're that horny all the time, find an willing Invisibile Entity who'll act out your fantasies with you in exchange for favors/Essence. Chances are, they'll hit your kinks better on top of being the more pragmatic choice.

        Now money, and other social abuses... I dunno, use Mind to become the best in your field
        As I mentioned, the thing of that matter is that most established mages have better things to do than just perpetually do those things to a point of getting caught for it. Unless you're a new mage who has the limited experience that is likewise going to lead to boring monstrosities, most of the regular transgressions are going to be dealing with the casual inconveniences rather than maliciously chasing base things you can answer for a number of other ways. Sacrificing a Sleeper to power a spell is going to be more the issue than serial date raping or focused torture of a Sleeper, partly because it becomes a lot more notable when magic is being done a lot outside of places it makes sense to see magic being done, which leads to the cannery of wizard whoop-ass, but also because your perspective keeps with your grasp, and your grasp will get long indeed.

        To borrow from 1E, "If you've got to be fucked in the head, do try to be more challenging about it."
        Last edited by ArcaneArts; 11-13-2022, 10:14 PM.


        Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
        Feminine pronouns, please.

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        • #19
          Honestly, the formation of a abusive cult is more likely to occur in your average Consilia, especially since it’s one of the ways to try and generate Awakenings.


          To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

          So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
            Honestly, the formation of a abusive cult is more likely to occur in your average Consilia, especially since it’s one of the ways to try and generate Awakenings.
            I'm not so sure dedicated Alethians trying to get results are always going to default to abusive manipulations. Just as tragedy and trauma do not geniuses*, wunderkind, and luden produce, struggle and strife are not recipes for Awakenings.

            Again, the biggest thing about most Pentacle mage abuses that aren't Big Spell/Mystery shit is that it's actually more the string of one-off pettinesses that no one's really going to stress about anymore than the ostensible giant around ants**. It's more Kilgrave with the coffee cup than Kilgrave with Hope (and notably, Hope was an act of maipulation towards a "peer" in the form of Jessica).

            *geniuses,not Geniuses.
            **Of course, I think I know enough people who are mindful of ants that this metaphor is rather The Argument, but that's also anecdotal and is ignoring that the idea is more the point than the reality.
            Last edited by ArcaneArts; 11-13-2022, 10:38 PM.


            Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
            Feminine pronouns, please.

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            • #21
              Mages are human in a way the other splats aren’t. They’ve human foibles, coupled with cosmic power. Are some Diamond mages going to misuse that power? Absolutely. It’s just in human nature.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Demigod Beast View Post
                Mages are human in a way the other splats aren’t. They’ve human foibles, coupled with cosmic power. Are some Diamond mages going to misuse that power? Absolutely. It’s just in human nature.
                Well. Mages are also fire in a way humans aren't. There's a reason they become an all-consuming obsession without Wisdom and can't change back.

                They're very human monsters, but it would be reductive to assume they're just monsters in the same way humans can be. You want Hunter for that exploration.


                Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                Feminine pronouns, please.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                  I'm not so sure dedicated Alethians trying to get results are always going to default to abusive manipulations. Just as tragedy and trauma do not geniuses*, wunderkind, and luden produce, struggle and strife are not recipes for Awakenings.
                  It’s been a bit since I’ve cracked up open SoS, so I might be wrong about the actual recipe, but I thought it was the right kind of mindset/soul, a confrontation of the supernatural, and the approval of the Watchtower. You can’t really control the Watchtower, and most people know that trying to force people into the right mindset won’t result in anything good, but the confrontation with the supernatural is absolutely in the capability of a Mage. The confrontation needs to be a true shock, which hopefully leads to an even greater revelation, so you need to tell a potential candidate as little as possible to as not to ruin that, and encounters with the supernatural are traumatic. And it has to be a actual breaking point, as I recall. So for the best odds, you need to potentially force someone into a situation the are potentially traumatized by, while keeping them in the dark as much as possible. Which might not even work even if things go perfectly, because of the Watchtower. Kinda feels abusive to me. It might not be the preferred choice, but it certainly is a choice. I even think there is a whole Legacy devoted to this style of generating Awakening, the Awakening Gambit. On the other hand, there is also the Illuminated Path, which is the complete opposite of this style.

                  Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                  *geniuses,not Geniuses.
                  Oh, yeah. Forgot about Genius. I guess there is a second edition out on the internet somewhere, huh.


                  To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

                  So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
                    It’s been a bit since I’ve cracked up open SoS, so I might be wrong about the actual recipe, but I thought it was the right kind of mindset/soul, a confrontation of the supernatural, and the approval of the Watchtower. You can’t really control the Watchtower, and most people know that trying to force people into the right mindset won’t result in anything good, but the confrontation with the supernatural is absolutely in the capability of a Mage. The confrontation needs to be a true shock, which hopefully leads to an even greater revelation, so you need to tell a potential candidate as little as possible to as not to ruin that, and encounters with the supernatural are traumatic. And it has to be a actual breaking point, as I recall. So for the best odds, you need to potentially force someone into a situation the are potentially traumatized by, while keeping them in the dark as much as possible. Which might not even work even if things go perfectly, because of the Watchtower. Kinda feels abusive to me. It might not be the preferred choice, but it certainly is a choice. I even think there is a whole Legacy devoted to this style of generating Awakening, the Awakening Gambit. On the other hand, there is also the Illuminated Path, which is the complete opposite of this style.

                    Oh, yeah. Forgot about Genius. I guess there is a second edition out on the internet somewhere, huh.
                    On the former, okay, fair point. I knew baout hte breaking point thing, but it hadn't occured to me in this context.

                    On the latter, I think so? Only significant thing of it I can vouch for still seems like it's in production.


                    Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                    Feminine pronouns, please.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
                      I even think there is a whole Legacy devoted to this style of generating Awakening, the Awakening Gambit.
                      To paraphrase my favorite summation of that Legacy; "This is a group of people who are so high on their own supply that they shaped their soul on a misunderstanding of Causation VS Correlation". Prove to me that you are actually aiding Awakenings, and not just getting good at spotting people on the cusp, ya terminaly precocious reprobates.


                      Monkish Asexual.

                      I make Legacies when I'm bored. They're of middling quality, but have a look if you're interested. Advice and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
                        The confrontation needs to be a true shock, which hopefully leads to an even greater revelation, so you need to tell a potential candidate as little as possible to as not to ruin that, and encounters with the supernatural are traumatic. And it has to be a actual breaking point, as I recall. So for the best odds, you need to potentially force someone into a situation the are potentially traumatized by, while keeping them in the dark as much as possible.
                        Caveat: the mechanical tipping point for starting an Awakening is that that breaking point needs to roll an exception success, which means, among other things, that your best bet for producing Lucidity in a Prospect is to ensure their Integrity is fairly high — another point in the "don't expose them to magic too much" column — and ideally in line with the character's Virtue or involved with defending themselves or their loved ones in those situations where the supernatural activity they're being exposed to is extreme and/or violent.

                        "To give someone the best chance of Awakening, he must come to understand that the world around him is larger and stranger than he has previously believed and that he can find answers to these mysteries, or at least proof that the mysteries are real, if only he searches long enough and is sufficiently dedicated to the quest."

                        The confrontation with the Lie is not the part of cultivating a Prospect that the Orders put most of their effort into — finding the sort of people they believe will be likely to respond to that confrontation is partly what Cryptopolies and Labyrinths and suchlike are there for. You don't need to force people into the right mindset when people with the right mindset already exist.


                        Resident Lore-Hound
                        Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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                        • #27
                          General answer to that question does not exist, as Lex Magica, it's Silver and Bronze Laws may differ pretty dramatically between different Consilia. Specific answer would be "take views on that matter of Order/s which were dominant in that region for extended period of time and imagine precedent law arising from mages of those Orders making decisions on various issues". You need also to be conscious about differences between Precept of Hubris and Precept of Veil. It is entirely possible that local Consilium is willing to overlook a lot of offenses, as long as they aren't breaking the Veil and attracting too much attention.

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                          • #28
                            Where are the Precepts detailed? I dont have all the books but I can ask to loan some of them.

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                            • #29
                              In terms of what intervention looks like, I imagine the escalation to look something like this [note, I don’t have the books in front of me; I think Sanctum and Sigil and Guardians go into this]:

                              Depending on your relationship to the offender (and the severity of their actions), try to convince them to stop.
                              - Intervention: if you have a relatively good relationship, talk to them about their motives, what’s wrong with what they’re doing, and how much of a Concern this is becoming
                              - Intimidation: if there’s not a good relationship, and you think you can get away with it, shake them down in an alley and tell them to “Stop, Or Else” (tm)
                              - A Duel Arcane would be an escalated form of either one of these, often with official witnesses to the terms and outcome, but still relatively a “matter between two mages”

                              Escalate to consilium / assembly mediation. This should be pretty easy, even if there aren’t rules for “this is bad behavior you can report to a sentinel / interfector.” Just get involved magically; mark one of their victims with your nimbus, a protection spell, or start indirectly messing with them until it becomes a matter of arbitration. The consilium’s main job is to stop open war between mages; if you have enough of a problem that you’re willing to fight that mage, the consilium will get involved - even if only to enforce a Duel.

                              The Authorities being involved might look like….
                              - Withholding consilium resources, black listing requests for help / artifacts / training, etc
                              - Fines in the form of tass or acts of service. I imagine the Orders have exemplary tasks that both help the Caucus and teach Wisdom, that might be the bulk of education for initiates (more on that below).
                              - Mandatory training to increase Wisdom. This could take a lot of forms (seeing the effects of their actions in the astral, being subjected to similar spells, being mentored in a less harmful alternative). Hopefully this will teach empathy - or at least pragmatism - but that could be fairly uncertain.
                              - Confiscation of the mage’s resources (artifacts/imbued items, hallow, sanctum).
                              - Taking their soul stone (if they have one) would be an extremely high penalty, and an effective one for keeping them on the narrow. Demanding their Sympathetic name and/or blood could be an alternative. Essentially, this would facilitate an actively watched “parol”. Other parol options might be binding an ephemeral being to them, hung spells, or using the open-ended version of “shared fate”.
                              - Placing the offender under a geas, or otherwise forcing a change through magic (altering their virtue / vice, their obsessions, severing or creating sympathetic bonds, altering memories, placing Conditions).
                              - Exile from the consilium / withholding protection.
                              - It would be Rare for the consilium to execute a mage, especially if they cooperated with a trial, but truly Left-handed practices do merit it.

                              Parol would mean, they should expect to be regularly scryed on / post-cognition, have their future or thoughts read, have their spells countered or dispelled, or other forms of magical harassment at the discretion of their parol officer. This could relate to the 1E merit of getting 3 favors before returning the soul stone - with favors in this case being demonstrations of restraint or improved wisdom.
                              Exile would basically permit any mage with a problem to kill or otherwise punish the offender in any way they deem appropriate. Terms of the exile may or may not exclude the current grievance (only allowing future actions to be punishable), might hold consilium mages to a maximum level of severity, or might have a limited duration (punishable only once).

                              When / what offenses a consilium is willing to invoke these punishments will depend on the particular figures involved and the city’s history with the lex magica - as other posts discuss - or, OOC, depending on where you want the tone of your chronicle to sit on the scale of cynicism vs idealism.

                              Another consideration, though, is the relative power of the mage involved, their allies, and the ability for others to hold them accountable. By the time someone is a Master, they can dispel and coverup most of the interventions, and while the consilium will find out relatively quickly, the only real options to escalate would be to watch them 24/7 with someone able to effectively counterspell / interrupt / undo the damage they cause, force them to concede (in a duel arcane, running them out of the city, or a near-fatal raid), or kill them.
                              Any of these options would take serious resources - on the scale of several Masters (maaaybe Adepts) willing to enforce this around the clock, which is a hard sell, and greatly risks the offender escalating.

                              This is one of the reasons Masters are given a greater voice in politics, even if they don’t hold an official position. In general, the Pentacle has to balance the risks / effort of open conflict against access to the most enticing mysteries, and the resources you can get cooperating peacefully. A rogue Master, especially one unwilling to leave a Great Mystery alone, is one of the most dangerous threats to a consilium: one they have to address with either enough force to take them out, enough privileges to keep them cooperative, or conceding that mage basically runs the show.

                              So I imagine that the Pentacle is relatively invasive and proactive with young mages - the Order books do read like it’s a full time job just after Awakening, including some “busy work” that could be done by familiars. Which makes the most sense if a large part of training includes weeding out people likely to cause problems, and intervening early to instill wisdom, integration in society, and a willingness to be held accountable. “Train them well when they’re puppies” …
                              That might be pretty high on the “idealism” side of the scale. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable for most cities to have at least one plucky idealist who would rather assassinate mages than allow them to abuse Sleepers. If the Consilium isn’t willing to tolerate that (by enforcing less drastic sanctions), maybe that’s a role for Hunters or Banishers.
                              Last edited by Seraph Kitty; 11-16-2022, 04:40 PM.


                              Second Chance for

                              A Beautiful Madness

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
                                Where are the Precepts detailed? I dont have all the books but I can ask to loan some of them.
                                Sanctum and Sigil is the main place where the Lex Magica is laid out. The Silver Ladder also addresses it, since it's their brain child, but it plays second to S&S.


                                Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                                Feminine pronouns, please.

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