Ask a simple question: Fallen World edition

[orathaic]

I remember from both old forum posts and conversations on the Discord server something about Astral (or maybe Supernal?) reflections / embodiments of the other splats, combined with a statement in Imperial Mysteries that each splat has its own advocates in the Supernal which may or may not be involved with Archmasters - stuff like Old Gods of the Thistle having ties to Changeling's True Fae and such. Is there any more information on entities like this, like, is there an Astral or Supernal god of vampires, etc.?

I know that the Aeons embody each of the Arcana, I was wondering if there is similar logic at play for other splats even if they might not often interact.

My memory of imperial mysteries has it that there are Archmaster/God level entities which have a vested interest in the various beings that exist.

So it could be the Crone worshipped by some vampires who would be pissed at an Archmaster for messing with what it is to be a vampire.

No details were really given, as it was up to the storyteller in each case. Other possible entities include the God-Machine, rank 7-10 spirits and astral beings (the human concept of Death is represented by a rank 7 Goetia...) Cthonic gods of the Underworld. The Judges of Mummy? The True Fae, Exarchs, other gods of the Supernal.

The most detailed info we have i suspect are about the Judges and Luna/various Werewolf entities. But i wouldn't say there are specific patrons required for each splatt.

[Aspel]

Here's a question:

Do players know that Paradox is about to be rolled and how many dice the Paradox pool has?
Because I've got someone who is telling me otherwise and even the parts of the book they're quoting don't seem to support that in my opinion, but their argument is that every spell has the potential to be paradoxical and that ST rolls are secret. That the players on every spell can spend mana to mitigate it by removing dice they don't actually know exist from the pool and then choose to Contain or Release the paradox even if there won't actually be any Paradox rolled.

[orathaic]

Here's a question:

Do players know that Paradox is about to be rolled and how many dice the Paradox pool has?
Because I've got someone who is telling me otherwise and even the parts of the book they're quoting don't seem to support that in my opinion, but their argument is that every spell has the potential to be paradoxical and that ST rolls are secret. That the players on every spell can spend mana to mitigate it by removing dice they don't actually know exist from the pool and then choose to Contain or Release the paradox even if there won't actually be any Paradox rolled.

Which piece of information about the paradox dice pool would be unknown to the player? They choose whether to over-reach and by how much. They know if they have inured the spell, or if they are using a dedicated magical tools.

The only thing which might not be known is whether there are any sleeper witnesses, and even then it has to be obviously magical (so if, say, they are watching on a security camera, and it could be CGI then maybe it isn't too obvious...)

So the maximum unknown is +1 dice in the paradox dice pool. Usually the player will definitely know they have paradox to mitigate, because usually the majority of the paradox dice pool is from overreaching.

[21C Hermit]

Here's a question:

Do players know that Paradox is about to be rolled and how many dice the Paradox pool has?
Because I've got someone who is telling me otherwise and even the parts of the book they're quoting don't seem to support that in my opinion, but their argument is that every spell has the potential to be paradoxical and that ST rolls are secret. That the players on every spell can spend mana to mitigate it by removing dice they don't actually know exist from the pool and then choose to Contain or Release the paradox even if there won't actually be any Paradox rolled.

Gut instinct says the player should know. That supports mages being cavalier with magic and Paradox risks, taunting danger until it bites them in the ass, which is the attitude I assoicate with Awakening’s mages.

[MorganG]

...So the maximum unknown is +1 dice in the paradox dice pool. ...

Except for every spell which risks paradox that you think is safe your paradox pool grows cumulatively.

Strictly speaking I get where this ST is coming from but I think the ruling in most cases is just going to be a tedious way of getting the players to waste mana.

I think the ChoD philosophy in general is to share information with players and trust them to make dramatic choices anyway.

If I was going to run a story where this was relevant I'd be up front and say like, 'while you are within the range of influence of this Gulmoth paradox works differently. You won't know how much it is and it's probably more than you think.' And then let the players be paranoid and/or figure out how it's working differently.

[orathaic]

Except for every spell which risks paradox that you think is safe your paradox pool grows cumulatively.

Strictly speaking I get where this ST is coming from but I think the ruling in most cases is just going to be a tedious way of getting the players to waste mana.

I think the ChoD philosophy in general is to share information with players and trust them to make dramatic choices anyway.

If I was going to run a story where this was relevant I'd be up front and say like, 'while you are within the range of influence of this Gulmoth paradox works differently. You won't know how much it is and it's probably more than you think.' And then let the players be paranoid and/or figure out how it's working differently.

Hmm, interesting, i think you should know when a spell has caused a paradox after the fact... But i suppose those doesn't necessarily apply if the ST rolls and fails to cause any paradox.

I think i agree with the rest of your assessment. But also, i think it is unusual for you not to know there is a sleeper witness, so you should know how many spells have risked a paradox in each scene.

[Aspel]

As much as I agree with you all—particularly the bit about how it just results in players wasting mana, and just seems unintuitive and not how the write up implies things to work—I was sort of hoping for something more definitive, like a reference page.

[MorganG]

As much as I agree with you all—particularly the bit about how it just results in players wasting mana, and just seems unintuitive and not how the write up implies things to work—I was sort of hoping for something more definitive, like a reference page.

I'm afraid I'm not aware of anything more definite. The few relevant lines in the Paradox section just confirm that it is a ST roll. Then it's a matter of interpretation as to whether the player choices to spend mana or contain/release imply some knowledge of the roll and pool.

What you could do though is ask the ST where it is written that ST rolls are secret.

[orathaic]

I'm afraid I'm not aware of anything more definite. The few relevant lines in the Paradox section just confirm that it is a ST roll. Then it's a matter of interpretation as to whether the player choices to spend mana or contain/release imply some knowledge of the roll and pool.

What you could do though is ask the ST where it is written that ST rolls are secret.

ST rolls being secret are fine. You also can do things like not tell the player what a target's withstand is before they roll (especially since they could use a knowing spell to figure that out if that really wanted to...)

But i would assume the ST says, ok I'm going to roll for paradox, you have overreached by 3, and at Gnosis 3 that means 6 dice, do you want to spend any mana to mitigate?

And then the result is secret, and you get asked if you want to contain or release...

So if you contain you don't know how much damage you risk taking (if any). This makes it more tense and the player has a meaningful decision to make.

[Isator Levi]

This is one of those cases of being made to argue a negative, I think. Dice rolls are visible by default; something would need to actively state that one should be made in secret. If that is not the case, then there's no cause to even assume it, rather than it being necessarily to tediously state "just a reminded, this is an openly made roll" every single time.

This troublesome individual should be asked to point out any other instance where it's actively stated the roll is visible, or else everybody should be using their dice behind screens and nobody has any idea what any result is.

And the choice on whether or not to contain a Paradox is made before the dice for it are rolled

[TempleBuilder]

Since I don’t think it’s been mentioned in 2e, would you say Chthonians still need the Spirit aspect to be summoned and stuff?

[proindrakenzol]

Since I don’t think it’s been mentioned in 2e, would you say Chthonians still need the Spirit aspect to be summoned and stuff?

Per Geist 2e, Chthonians don't have Manifestations, entering the living world as solid beings, and take an agg per turn away from an Underworld Gate.

You'd probably need Spirit to give it Manifestations, similar to how goetia work, but otherwise I don't think Spirit is necessary.

[Newes]

Hypothetical situation:

A Moros mage has had a spirit of hunger fetter itself to him. The mage has not noticed (there was a lot of magical things going on when the fettering thing happened, and the mage has no arcana that would easily detect a spirit).

In trying to avoid an enemy, the Moros uses ghost gate w/ reach to shift directly into ghost twilight.

The spirit in question has no influences or numina that affect ghost or deaths. Ghost twilight is normally as undetectable and untouchable to it as to a normal human.

So, when the mage shifts to ghost twilight does the spirit just get pulled along? (if so, how does effectively being changed to a new type of ephemera affect the spirit?)
Or does the spirit stay in normal state, with the fetter intact but the spirit no longer able to detect the mage (aside from perhaps his physical location)
Or does the fetter manifistation just dissolve?

[21C Hermit]

Hypothetical situation:

A Moros mage has had a spirit of hunger fetter itself to him. The mage has not noticed (there was a lot of magical things going on when the fettering thing happened, and the mage has no arcana that would easily detect a spirit).

In trying to avoid an enemy, the Moros uses ghost gate w/ reach to shift directly into ghost twilight.

The spirit in question has no influences or numina that affect ghost or deaths. Ghost twilight is normally as undetectable and untouchable to it as to a normal human.

So, when the mage shifts to ghost twilight does the spirit just get pulled along? (if so, how does effectively being changed to a new type of ephemera affect the spirit?)
Or does the spirit stay in normal state, with the fetter intact but the spirit no longer able to detect the mage (aside from perhaps his physical location)
Or does the fetter manifistation just dissolve?

Both are still on the material world, just in a different frequency, so I suppose the second — the spirit stays in spirit-Twilight, still Fettered to the mage, but rightly confused since the latter just vanished from its perspective. It’ll probably intuit what’s going on, given some time.

[orathaic]

Both are still on the material world, just in a different frequency, so I suppose the second — the spirit stays in spirit-Twilight, still Fettered to the mage, but rightly confused since the latter just vanished from its perspective. It’ll probably intuit what’s going on, given some time.

I may decide to unfetter if it thinks its fetter is gone and no longer useful... But it may just stick to it.

If the mage used ghost gate to walk into twilight drsgging the spirit through too then that might be a different question.

Infact I'll ask it. What happens if a spirit or other non-death twilight entity goes through a ghost gate? Are they valid target for the effect?