Ask a simple question: Fallen World edition

[Cauthon]

Invoking the Eye while doing the same? Uh…

FBI! Open up! (NSA, open up?)

More seriously, the FC has a bit of a grab-bag feel to them. Where the other Orders mostly focus on the invocation of somewhat ridged themes (simplified to Secrecy, Knowledge, Order, and Oaths/Violence), the FC focuses on "Innovation". That can mean Innovation in the inventive sense, using technology, but it can also be invoked on ideas that differ from the current "mainstream". The latest smartphone is just as valid as an obscure musical style.

[ArcaneArts]

What is exactly the Free Council* Symbolism?





The order tools are a Yantra that have specific symbolism tied to the Order ethos (Authority, Conflict, Knowledge, Concealing Identity, Culture, Tyranny). And those are "mundane items that have a symbolic link to specific kinds of magic" so that means physical tangible items (only the Broad Dedication merit allows for intangible Yantras as Dedicated Tools).




So, IF I am getting it right the Order tool of an Arrow adds +1 bonus when used as symbol of conflict (defense, attack, perhaps a social contest) and Mysterium members would add +1 from the Order tool when using a spell to find or get knowledge (perhaps also hide it?) and to spells to communicate.




Techné allows the "use cultural magical styles, sciences, and art forms as magical tools" so it is clear that it is talking about intangibles too (Computer Networking is the example from the merit description), so this is another exception to the physical item part.


But being "complex mechanisms and systems" is a description of what tools can be, not of what they represent, so in which situations do I get the +1 Order tool semiotic bonus for the Free Council? The Order description talks about Culture... but I get to use the +1 bonus when I am doing what exactly?

You say this like tools can't be used to multiple interprertations. In the same way a meaning can be expressed in several different symbols (Like how the words "tree" and "木" both signify the same thing despite not sounding or looking like each other), a symbol can be used to infer multiple meanings.

Anyways, in specific, the systems represent what is reasonable to associate with those, and particularly given their context in their respective culture. The operations of an accounting office is simultaneuously a viable semiotic for unveiling hidden or lost things, divining an answer to complex question, or imparting the feelings and thoughts of tedium, innatity, and futility on someone. What it probably won't work for is conjuring a pillar of fire to smite your foes-but a religious meeting with back to back sermons about divine retribution and smiting the wicked could do quite well with that. By contrast, a Christian service is going to have different resonances to a Buddhist funeral, and both of those are going be different vehicles compared to a reconstructionist Celtic sacred festival.

It takes both critical thinking, to thoroughly understand human cultures as they are AND as symbols, and imagination, to find clever ways to apply the myriad elements of the symbol of human cultures to ways to redescribe reality, to make the use of the various forms of Techne, which is fitting for a Sect that prizes the nuance and involvement of human cultures and how it interacts with reality. It's very potent for it's flexibility, and certainly in the ways it can be supported, but only for those who are willing to use the whole fruit, to borrow from an old analogy between the Diamond's juice and the Free Council's cider.

[lbeaumanior]

You say this like tools can't be used to multiple interprertations. In the same way a meaning can be expressed in several different symbols (Like how the words "tree" and "木" both signify the same thing despite not sounding or looking like each other), a symbol can be used to infer multiple meanings.

Anyways, in specific, the systems represent what is reasonable to associate with those, and particularly given their context in their respective culture. The operations of an accounting office is simultaneuously a viable semiotic for unveiling hidden or lost things, divining an answer to complex question, or imparting the feelings and thoughts of tedium, innatity, and futility on someone. What it probably won't work for is conjuring a pillar of fire to smite your foes-but a religious meeting with back to back sermons about divine retribution and smiting the wicked could do quite well with that. By contrast, a Christian service is going to have different resonances to a Buddhist funeral, and both of those are going be different vehicles compared to a reconstructionist Celtic sacred festival.

It takes both critical thinking, to thoroughly understand human cultures as they are AND as symbols, and imagination, to find clever ways to apply the myriad elements of the symbol of human cultures to ways to redescribe reality, to make the use of the various forms of Techne, which is fitting for a Sect that prizes the nuance and involvement of human cultures and how it interacts with reality. It's very potent for it's flexibility, and certainly in the ways it can be supported, but only for those who are willing to use the whole fruit, to borrow from an old analogy between the Diamond's juice and the Free Council's cider.

Thanks for your answer. My questions are more focused on the Free Council physical tools, as the other others had some specific use cases (Tools of Conflict, tools of Persuasion, tools of Knowledge/Communicaiton) what are the specific use cases for Free Council tools?

All the Order descriptions on the Core 2e show what the tools can be AND what can they be used for, but (At least for me) is not clear what can they be used for in the Free Council case.

So I know that I can dedicate a Cellphone but what is the *standard* use case for it with the Free Council (not considering any creative cases)?

[Cauthon]

Thanks for your answer. My questions are more focused on the Free Council physical tools, as the other others had some specific use cases (Tools of Conflict, tools of Persuasion, tools of Knowledge/Communicaiton) what are the specific use cases for Free Council tools?

All the Order descriptions on the Core 2e show what the tools can be AND what can they be used for, but (At least for me) is not clear what can they be used for in the Free Council case.

So I know that I can dedicate a Cellphone but what is the *standard* use case for it with the Free Council (not considering any creative cases)?

A cellphone would be Communication. A modern smartphone could also include themes of Information, since we can connect to the internet and google traslate just about anything we point a camera at. Similarly, you could use the ability to take a picture (and extend that symbolism to any Tool that can function as a camera) as a focus for a Shielding spell; the photo taken represents how the subject should be.

[ArcaneArts]

Thanks for your answer. My questions are more focused on the Free Council physical tools, as the other others had some specific use cases (Tools of Conflict, tools of Persuasion, tools of Knowledge/Communicaiton) what are the specific use cases for Free Council tools?

All the Order descriptions on the Core 2e show what the tools can be AND what can they be used for, but (At least for me) is not clear what can they be used for in the Free Council case.

So I know that I can dedicate a Cellphone but what is the *standard* use case for it with the Free Council (not considering any creative cases)?

I don't know, what do you think you can use a cellphone as a symbol for? Strictly literal reading is not going to help you here.

[lbeaumanior]

I don't know, what do you think you can use a cellphone as a symbol for? Strictly literal reading is not going to help you here.

I think it is my lack of English knowledge causing the issue.


Mysterium order description says that their symbol is Knowledge and their tools are Knowledge related (books, scribing tools, art that has messages) they get a +1 bonus as an order tool when used as a Knowledge related Yantra.


Adamantine Arrow order description says that their symbol is Conflict and their tools are Conflict related (weapons, protective charms) they get a +1 bonus as an order tool when used as a Conflict related Yantra.


Free Council describes their tools are "complex mechanisms and systems" they get a +1 bonus as an order tool as a XXXXX related Yantra. What is XXXXX for the Free Council?

[Cauthon]

I think it is my lack of English knowledge causing the issue.


Mysterium Order Description says that their symbol is Knowledge and their tools are Knowledge related (books, scribing tools, art that has messages) they get a +1 bonus as an order tool when used as a Knowledge related Yantra

Arrow Order Description says that their symbol is Conflict and their tools are Conflict related (weapons, protective charms) they get a +1 bonus as an order tool when used as a Conflict related Yantra



Free Council describes "complex mechanisms and systems" but when does the +1 bonus as an order tool when used as a XXXXX related Yantra, what is XXXXX for the Free Council?

Innovation. Technology is the easiest thing to default to, but more broadly the FC taps into the novel applications of pre-existing knowledge and materials.

More specifically, the FC looks to Sleeper culture for their magical symbolism. The Diamond Orders have a lot of their symbolism tied into schools of thought descended from Greek philosophy. The FC on the other hand just says "fuck that noise", and grabs whatever local cultural traditions resonate with them. Which can be as simple as "tech bro", as derivative as "new age hippy" or as poignant as "inheritor of ancestral practices".

(Sorry I can't help much with the language barrier, best I can do would be to run it through Google Translate or DeepL. You're from Brussels, right? So Dutch, or French?)

[Stupid Loserman]

Free Council describes "complex mechanisms and systems" but when does the +1 bonus as an order tool when used as a XXXXX related Yantra, what is XXXXX for the Free Council?

The base order tool is complex mechanisms and systems. Clockwork. Circuitry. Numerology. Scientific experimentation. Objects and practices that involve many things moving to achieve a defined collective practical end. Ordering things in concert with one another to the end of purposes like keeping time, collating data, making predictions, extrapolating conclusions. A base Free Council yantra is never one discrete object. It might be a watch, but a watch used in a way that exposes that it is many gears and spokes ticking together, whose movements in concert produce what we call a "watch."

The Free Council teaches the methods of Techne to extend their order tool to systems aimed at less concrete, defined ends: systems whose purposes are abstract and man-made. Techne allows the order tool bonus to apply to religious liturgies, traditional folk celebrations, artistic pursuits, or professional practices.

[lbeaumanior]

Innovation. Technology is the easiest thing to default to, but more broadly the FC taps into the novel applications of pre-existing knowledge and materials.

More specifically, the FC looks to Sleeper culture for their magical symbolism. The Diamond Orders have a lot of their symbolism tied into schools of thought descended from Greek philosophy. The FC on the other hand just says "fuck that noise", and grabs whatever local cultural traditions resonate with them. Which can be as simple as "tech bro", as derivative as "new age hippy" or as poignant as "inheritor of ancestral practices".

(Sorry I can't help much with the language barrier, best I can do would be to run it through Google Translate or DeepL. You're from Brussels, right? So Dutch, or French?)

The base order tool is complex mechanisms and systems. Clockwork. Circuitry. Numerology. Scientific experimentation. Objects and practices that involve many things moving to achieve a defined collective practical end. Ordering things in concert with one another to the end of purposes like keeping time, collating data, making predictions, extrapolating conclusions. A base Free Council yantra is never one discrete object. It might be a watch, but a watch used in a way that exposes that it is many gears and spokes ticking together, whose movements in concert produce what we call a "watch."

The Free Council teaches the methods of Techne to extend their order tool to systems aimed at less concrete, defined ends: systems whose purposes are abstract and man-made. Techne allows the order tool bonus to apply to religious liturgies, traditional folk celebrations, artistic pursuits, or professional practices.

Thanks to both, yes this is what I was asking.

I was confused about the Culture part of the text on the Order descritption, do you use "complex mechanismis and systems" as a symbol of Culture for a +1 Yantra bonus? But the way you explained makes sense, and expands the usage with Techne.

[Cauthon]

It's outside 2e's scope, but... can Archmages go Rapt?

[TempleBuilder]

It's outside 2e's scope, but... can Archmages go Rapt?

Yes, I would say so. They still have Wisdom, and Rapture is breaking of the soul from the degradation of Wisdom, though they can probably fix it.

[Satchel]

Yes, I would say so. They still have Wisdom, and Rapture is breaking of the soul from the degradation of Wisdom, though they can probably fix it.

Left-Hand Path has an entire sidebar on page 52 highlighting the similarities and differences between archmages and the Enraptured — archmages who hit Wisdom 0 become Qliphoth, and ordinary mages who've hit Wisdom 0 can't cross the Threshold to achieve Imperial Arcana.

[TempleBuilder]

Left-Hand Path has an entire sidebar on page 52 highlighting the similarities and differences between archmages and the Enraptured — archmages who hit Wisdom 0 become Qliphoth, and ordinary mages who've hit Wisdom 0 can't cross the Threshold to achieve Imperial Arcana.

Wait, the same Qliphoth that one becomes with 10 Joining? Why?

[ArcaneArts]

Wait, the same Qliphoth that one becomes with 10 Joining? Why?

An Archmage's Golden Road pierces through the Abyss, kept secure by the force of their Wisdom keeping it metaphysically airtight. What happens to a submarine when you stop doing maintenence on it?

[Satchel]

Wait, the same Qliphoth that one becomes with 10 Joining? Why?

As Kelly says. Same thing happens if a prospective Seeker fails the Abyssal Trial or an established archmage suffers the worst form of Imperial Paradox and fails to extricate themselves from the Greater Abyssal Being it entangles them with.

Qliphoth were introduced as a failstate for archmages. Being able to turn yourself into one as a Scelestus is new to 2e.