Ask a simple question: Fallen World edition

[TempleBuilder]

As per Ian’s advice, I’m creating a similar thread as to the now closed ask a simple question thread.

To restart with, what practice would it be to have a spell act like a massless rope or thread for those example physics problems?

[Cauthon]

To restart with, what practice would it be to have a spell act like a massless rope or thread for those example physics problems?

Sorry, need some context. Can you give an example of these physics problems?

Without context though, it sounds like Telekinesis or Levitation.

[TempleBuilder]

These problems are what I meant. In basic physics, you are supposed to not care about the friction, mass or any number of properties of a rope that would need to be accounted for in real life. Basically, I’m asking about a spell that connects two objects and make them act on each other as if they were connected by a rope. It would be useful for traps, spider man style swinging, and much more.

[Cauthon]

These problems are what I meant. In basic physics, you are supposed to not care about the friction, mass or any number of properties of a rope that would need to be accounted for in real life. Basically, I’m asking about a spell that connects two objects and make them act on each other as if they were connected by a rope. It would be useful for traps, spider man style swinging, and much more.

Huh. Some photos aren't displaying on my phone. Interesting.

I'd personally stick with something in the vein of TK or Levitation still. Space might be able to co-opt a variation on Co-Location, dictating that the space between the target's cannot increase.

EDIT: nor are the pictures displaying on my tablet. Thaaat... may become a problem.

[orathaic]

I have a question about Greater Tupla, and Bound Supernals.

1.) How long does a Greater Tupla hang around, it says they can use immediate, signature or long term Nimbus (or the Rapt mage who 'summoned' them) as a resonant conditions, and they don't start losing corpus (for being in the Fallen) until the Nimbus fades. But only one of those Three types of Nimbuses fades.

So does it mean it can last 1+ weeks like a standard signature nimbus?

And can you reduce that by cleaning up the Nimbus in question?

Also if it is using the long term Nimbus as a resonant condition - or effectively as part of the summoning circle - but long term nimbuses spread to all of a character's sympathic connection (the lower the wisdom the further it spreads). For a Rapt mage that means even below a weak sympathic connection. So it is just anything the Rapt mage has even had contact with is part of the summoning circle?

2.) For Bound i am presuming the work the same way as Supernals except for where it specifically states otherwise. When they run out of mana they go into hibernation, if they lose all corpus (when the have mana or when they don't?) Do they return to their prison in hibernation? Are they able to absorb mana from a hallow if they are hibernating near one (Like other invisible entities absorbing essence from a resonant condition)? It say they can only take mana destructively, which suggests meditating at a hallow doesn't help them... But they can be given mana, so i am confused.

[TempleBuilder]

Huh. Some photos aren't displaying on my phone. Interesting.

Uh no. It's not displaying except when I'm logged in, except on my tablet where it displays all the time.

EDIT: nor are the pictures displaying on my tablet. Thaaat... may become a problem.

Yeah...I'm going to try again if you don't mind. For Science if nothing else.



Url links in case that doesn't work.
1 2 3

Edit: ok that really didn't work.
Edit 2: I got one to work!

[KaiserAfini]

Probably a Patterning, considering Ghostwall does an equivalent feat by rendering an object insubstantial. In this case, rendering an object massless or immovable can probably be done with that Practice of Forces.

[Satchel]

1.) How long does a Greater Tupla hang around, it says they can use immediate, signature or long term Nimbus (or the Rapt mage who 'summoned' them) as a resonant conditions, and they don't start losing corpus (for being in the Fallen) until the Nimbus fades. But only one of those Three types of Nimbuses fades.

So does it mean it can last 1+ weeks like a standard signature nimbus?

And can you reduce that by cleaning up the Nimbus in question?

A Greater Tulpa can exist without weakening from exposure to the Phenomenal World within the Nimbus of the Enraptured mage that spawned it. This applies as usual for a mage of the same Gnosis, with the only caveat being that the portions of reality affected by their Long-Term Nimbus are even more plot-determined than usual.

Also if it is using the long term Nimbus as a resonant condition - or effectively as part of the summoning circle - but long term nimbuses spread to all of a character's sympathic connection (the lower the wisdom the further it spreads). For a Rapt mage that means even below a weak sympathic connection. So it is just anything the Rapt mage has even had contact with is part of the summoning circle?

"An Enraptured mage’s Nimbus is the wound from which her magic spills, a font of uncontrolled Supernal power. Without Wisdom, she can’t contain it or choose when and how to let it out. Her Long-Term Nimbus is more like a magical contagion than an occult confluence, spreading without regard for any meaningful connection between mage and subject."

"The character’s Long-Term Nimbus spreads regardless of sympathetic ties; instead, the Storyteller dictates its spread to show how the Rapt’s sorcerous influence taints the world, using it as a Mystery and a story hook to draw player characters in."

For an ordinary mage the Long-Term Nimbus can show up according to their sympathetic connections and how well they've separated their Shadow Name from their mundane life. That doesn't mean your mentor, apprentice, Sanctum and familiar will all constantly have weird things going on with them appropriate to your Path, and the only difference the Rapt provide in this regard is that the range of possible links between them and the things their Nimbus draws weirdness towards is even more tenuous than casual acquaintance or regular association. See again "even more plot-determined than usual."

2.) For Bound i am presuming the work the same way as Supernals except for where it specifically states otherwise. When they run out of mana they go into hibernation, if they lose all corpus (when the have mana or when they don't?) Do they return to their prison in hibernation?

Explicitly yes.

Are they able to absorb mana from a hallow if they are hibernating near one (Like other invisible entities absorbing essence from a resonant condition)? It say they can only take mana destructively, which suggests meditating at a hallow doesn't help them... But they can be given mana, so i am confused.

Meditation alone does not remove Mana from a Hallow and an oblation is not a spell devised to give Mana to the Bound. They don't eat tass in their sleep.

[orathaic]

A Greater Tulpa can exist without weakening from exposure to the Phenomenal World within the Nimbus of the Enraptured mage that spawned it. This applies as usual for a mage of the same Gnosis, with the only caveat being that the portions of reality affected by their Long-Term Nimbus are even more plot-determined than usual.

<Snip>

I think I'm with you on everything except the lenght of time they can exist.

It is explicitly says "The entity doesn’t start losing Corpus until the Nimbus fades."

Which could be multiple weeks at Gnosis 6+ (for a very strong signature nimbus) but not indefinitely.

Explicitly yes.

Then i must have missed that bit, only saw what happens 'if they run out of mana' not corpus. Can you point me in the right direction?

Meditation alone does not remove Mana from a Hallow and an oblation is not a spell devised to give Mana to the Bound. They don't eat tass in their sleep.

So basically, if you take all their mana, a bound will go into hibernation indefinitely, in their prison.

Edit: snipped the bits where you confirmed all the things i suspected. Appreciate the detailed answer.

[Satchel]

I think I'm with you on everything except the lenght of time they can exist.

It is explicitly says "The entity doesn’t start losing Corpus until the Nimbus fades."

Which could be multiple weeks at Gnosis 6+ (for a very strong signature nimbus) but not indefinitely.

This does not contradict anything I said, which was that an Enraptured Mage's Nimbus only differs from an unEnraptured mage's by the particulars of what their Long-Term Nimbus can affect. The way the Signature Nimbus works is not stated to be different for the Rapt than other mages. If a means of getting rid of the traces of a mage's Nimbus exists, it works on the Nimbuses of the Rapt unless specifically noted.

Then i must have missed that bit, only saw what happens 'if they run out of mana' not corpus. Can you point me in the right direction?

Capitalization in the sentence threw off my reading of the question. They explicitly return to their prison in hibernation if they run out of Mana. Given that 1e's mechanics for the Bound had this also happen if they ran out of Health or Willpower and they're still primarily things that lair/are imprisoned in Atlantean complexes; they use the Supernal being mechanics in 2e, and from the particulars of their description (including the word that comprises their common name) it can be safely assumed that they're usually physically manifested and operate on similar rules to the "Avatars in the Fallen" quality of Ochemata described in Signs of Sorcery rather than being poisoned by the world they're stuck in; if one of the Bound loses all its Corpus, it presumably reforms in its prison/the place it fell to Earth.

[orathaic]

This does not contradict anything I said, which was that an Enraptured Mage's Nimbus only differs from an unEnraptured mage's by the particulars of what their Long-Term Nimbus can affect.

What you said, or what i tjjught you said, was "A Greater Tulpa can exist without weakening from exposure to the Phenomenal World" - which i inferred to mean without time limit.

Long term Nimbus may not fade, while signature nimbus does. So i am just trying to figure out the intended time limit of an entity which can use any type of Nimbus (of the Rapt mage who 'summoned' them) as a summoning circle

Capitalization in the sentence threw off my reading of the question. They explicitly return to their prison in hibernation if they run out of Mana. Given that 1e's mechanics for the Bound had this also happen if they ran out of Health or Willpower and they're still primarily things that lair/are imprisoned in Atlantean complexes; they use the Supernal being mechanics in 2e, and from the particulars of their description (including the word that comprises their common name) it can be safely assumed that they're usually physically manifested and operate on similar rules to the "Avatars in the Fallen" quality of Ochemata described in Signs of Sorcery rather than being poisoned by the world they're stuck in; if one of the Bound loses all its Corpus, it presumably reforms in its prison/the place it fell to Earth.

Apologies if my capitalizationnwas off putting.

I guess i would also have assumed those 1e style rules, or something akin to what is written about the other invisible entities (ie they go into hibernation in a location which is 'resonant' - which in the case of the Bound is where-ever they are Bound on the earth, or Underworld or whatever part of the phenomenal they are 'imprisoned' in).

If we take the general rules for Invisible entities (run out of corpus but not mana/essence then the usual thing happens) then the additional ruling for them running out of mana makes sense, ie it overrules the default Invisible Entities rule that makes you want to take all the essence before destroying their corpus of you want to kill them.

It just happens that the Supernal Being rules for summoned entities are ignored in this interpretation (especially the whole being dragged into the Abyss).

EDIT: infact this makes perfect sense now that i think it through the 4th time. All Invisible entites will reform at their 'anchor' point - Summoned Supernals 'anchor' point being on the other side of the Abyss is a problem for them. Not so much for other types of Supernal being or other type of entity.

[Satchel]

What you said, or what i tjjught you said, was "A Greater Tulpa can exist without weakening from exposure to the Phenomenal World" - which i inferred to mean without time limit.

The rest of that sentence immediately continued "within the Nimbus of the Enraptured mage that spawned it."

If a piece of the Nimbus has a time limit, that time limit exists separately from the consequences a Supernal being faces from being outside of a summoning circle or other supporting environment, as stated by the entity not starting to lose Corpus until the Nimbus fades. While the Signature Nimbus has not faded, the Tulpa can use it to stave off the chill of the Abyss, but if it leaves the area covered by the Nimbus it has no such protection until it returns.

[orathaic]

Ok, so you are proposing that Immediate Nimbus flares provide very little time (immediate), Signature Nimbuses provides lots of time (1+ weeks depending on gnosis), and Long term Nimbuses offer Long term protection (unspecified).

Feels a bit odd if the Long Term Nimbus is basically left all over the place, spreading like crazy.

[Satchel]

Feels a bit odd if the Long Term Nimbus is basically left all over the place, spreading like crazy.

The function of the Long-Term Nimbus in general is "weird shit happens around the Awakened" and for the Rapt that expands to "and the Supernal being that supports or enacts the mage's Fault can hang around in the vicinity of that weirdness while it's going on." This isn't a Promethean's Wasteland, this is the normal consequences of existing as a mage with some of the sensibilities broken off and turned into ventilation points for the Stress of a fractured wizard soul.

It spreads, to be sure, but the Long-Term Nimbus doesn't have additional staying power for the Rapt except in the sense that if a Lesser Tulpa manifests through the Long-Term Nimbus (i.e. if the mage has a full Stress track but doesn't manage to roll at least three successes on a Stress roll with rote quality) it leaves the mage's Signature Nimbus on an area based on the Advanced Area Scale table after the phenomena created by the Tulpa cease to persist.

Given that rolls to generate Tulpa happen at the start of every scene the Rapt is present and get more likely to succeed at all (and thus generate Tulpa and reduce Stress), that's a relatively infrequent pace, especially when the section on Lesser Tulpa manifesting through the Long-Term Nimbus highlights the key prerequisite of the Long-Term Nimbus actively influencing people and events at the time —the Long-Term Nimbus is not like the Immediate and Signature Nimbuses, it's "strange, fractal geometry in the universe."

A Greater Tulpa being able to sustain itself in the presence of the Long-Term Nimbus means that the occasions where reality warps to steer the Rapt toward feeding their Fault sometimes have a consistent actor attached to them. A Rapt mage fatally obsessed with spirit possession rolls into town and ends up with their Totem appearing at the locus in the park that they haven't learned about yet to open a hole out of the Shadow. An Enraptured Alchemist bent on trying to alloy human souls with precious metals unknowingly sends their Apeiron to cause an armored car transporting gold ingots to lose half its cargo. The Malefactor consumed by the need to burn down inhabited buildings sees their Seraph set fire to an apartment block across town, and decides to visit the site out of morbid curiosity, not yet knowing the event will have draw the attention of agents of the Ruin. And so on.

[lbeaumanior]

1. Does requisitioning using Consilium/Order status also cover the new merits (Perfected Item, Mana Battery, etc) in Signs of Sorcery?
   I assume you need to buy them with Caucus Assets merit, but would like confirmation.
2. Can I combine requisition request in a single item (assuming it exists)?
   I want a Soul Stone of mage with higher Gnosis (2 availability), that is also a Magical tool (1 availability) and if possible a Path tool (+1 availability)
3. Does using a Soul Stone overrides the Yantra Bonus if it is also a Magical Tool?
   
   "When used by another mage as a tool Yantra, soul stones
   offer a +2 die bonus, or +3 if the creator’s Gnosis is higher
   than the user’s. The stone’s form must still be useable for
   the spell."
   
   So if Mark the Obrimos has a Soul Stone of a higher Gnosis mage that is also a Gold Coin.
   Does he get +1 using the coin as a Yantra, +3 because of being a Soul Stone, or can he use the 2 different Yantras (being a coin and being a Soul Stone) using different Yantra Slots?
4. The Soul Stone requisitioning on Signs of Sorcery seems wrong, it says as the merit (1 o 2 dots), but +1 if the stone is from a mage with higher Gnosis, and that is what the 2 point of the merit does if you pick it... Am I missing something?