What do I have to do to keep my high Consilium/Order Status?

[lbeaumanior]

Greetings,

As per the thread title, what regular tasks are needed to keep Status 5 in each Pentacle Order or the Consilium itself?

The backend for this, I was asking if its feasible to have a high status Pentacle mage that does not really focus on all (or the main) aspects of its Order. I am thinking someone treating the Orders as a job to be done, but not fully into the ethos of the order itself.

• Guardians of the Veil
  IMHO hard to pull it is a messianic religion, and lots of focus on the Labyrinths. Not many ideas here.
• Mysterium
  It is another Mystery religion, with magic as its divinity. I think there is lots of focus on publishing magical research. Adding content to the Athenea.
• Silver Ladder
  Cryptopolies and how to influence society seem to be the path of advancement. Being a teacher to other mages (not necessarily Silver Ladder) perhaps? Participating on the Consilium tasks?
• Free Council
  I think here is easier, seems you could do lots of low level tasks, that in aggregate help you keep the status: voting on all proposals, hosting meetings, casting spells for other members, contributing financially to the Order expenses, providing professional advice to other members, etc. I think here "being a good chap" counts for a lot.
• Adamantine Arrow
  I think this is even harder than the Mysterium, part of the motto is "Service is Mastery", so lots of applied efforts are to be expected on defending other mages, training personnel, etc.
• Consilium
  Working in a titled capacity? Aiding the Consilium work beyond your titled position: donating or managing the Consilium locations (meeting places, storage rooms, holding cells if any), paying/contributing to the expenses of running the Consilium?

I envision someone that understands that having high Status on an organization like the Orders has lots of material and magical advantages (Resources, Retainers, Safe Place, Alternate Identity, Artifacts, etc, etc).

I would like corrections, suggestions, and comments on the list above please.

[KaiserAfini]

I believe the Orders will only entrust higher levels of power to those that serve their interests well. Defending it, providing leadership, diplomatic aid, advancing its goals through exemplary service or in recognition of major breakthroughs.

Any exception requires a unique political or supernatural situation, which comes with other types of strings attached.

There is no reason to invest valuable resources in someone who is not committed to the prosperity of the Order as a whole, or one that is not dedicated to its philosophy.

The examples you cited seem more akin to the aide of someone who has Order Status, rather than the person in charge. The tasks lack the type of added value that would make them stand out as strong candidates to be entrusted with more power.

Imagine you are choosing an Adamant Sage, would you rather have it be the mage that drills new Talons occasionally and then clocks out to do their own research, or the strategist that coordinated a cross order crackdown on the Tremere and simultaneously busted their bunkers in one beautifully planned blitz? If Service is Mastery, then who provided the greater service to their fellows ? Who deserves to wield the power and responsibility of being called a Sage of the Adamant Way ?

[MorganG]

Order Status 5 (at least with respect to the Diamond Orders) implies to me being one of the inner circle of a global mystery religion. They would perhaps be personally acquainted with every other Status 5 in the world. They would be entrusted with the deepest secrets of the order and they would have been initiated into them by another who was already at that level and trusted them. Initiation into higher levels would require metaphysical tests of loyalty and commitment that would be difficult to fake for a mage. They would be responsible for the work of the order within an entire region.

It is inconceivable to me that someone could get to that level without a commitment to the orders ideals (even if a heterodox/heretical interpretation of them). Or by being an actual mole with ultimately malign intent towards the order.

The Free Council is somewhat different since that can come down to mundane politics.

[lbeaumanior]

Order Status 5 (at least with respect to the Diamond Orders) implies to me being one of the inner circle of a global mystery religion. They would perhaps be personally acquainted with every other Status 5 in the world. They would be entrusted with the deepest secrets of the order and they would have been initiated into them by another who was already at that level and trusted them. Initiation into higher levels would require metaphysical tests of loyalty and commitment that would be difficult to fake for a mage. They would be responsible for the work of the order within an entire region.

It is inconceivable to me that someone could get to that level without a commitment to the orders ideals (even if a heterodox/heretical interpretation of them). Or by being an actual mole with ultimately malign intent towards the order.

The Free Council is somewhat different since that can come down to mundane politics.

I agree, half of the Diamond Orders are explicitly a very devouted religion (Mysterium, Guardians of the Veil) and the other half are hard to separate from their ideals.




Hypothetically, let's say you have a city with lots of low skill Free Council members and one mage grows in magical skills beyond what you had: if everyone was multi degree Disciple at most, this girl is a third degree Adept, or perhaps the order only master.

Would that justify having a high Status? Either trying to get in her good graces, she being influential by casting more advanced spells on behalf of the other members, if needed being able to Duel Arcane on a more even footing with other Order members, etc)

[orathaic]

Also, there is an entire 6th order which you seem to be ignoring. Can you get order status 5 (Seers) without prelacy? If you can is it strict job first, heirarchies, and stabbing your boss in the back at the right time? Does prelacy and following your Exarch's mystery commands actually help a seer gain status? Or is it a distraction from the political infighting each minsitry has within their Pylons and/or between ministries...

[ArcaneArts]

Also, there is an entire 6th order which you seem to be ignoring. Can you get order status 5 (Seers) without prelacy? If you can is it strict job first, heirarchies, and stabbing your boss in the back at the right time? Does prelacy and following your Exarch's mystery commands actually help a seer gain status? Or is it a distraction from the political infighting each minsitry has within their Pylons and/or between ministries...

In the case of the Seers, they probably have the easiest explanation for any given promotion you'd want. You just simply have to be powerful enough to rip the people above you out of their seat. Prelacy makes that easier in some ways, but just as often can get in the way due to the subjection to Exarchial influence.

On similar principles, a Status 5 Seer without Prelacy has two main advantages, assuming the principle of the first answer from this post doesn't apply, being that a) they're just bloody powerful, and b) they don't suffer from the metaphysical markers that marks them as a Seer*, and thus in the game of invisible masters against invisible masters, they are all the more invisible. Sure, they're not quite as trustworthy as Prelates, but on the other hand, trusting your fellow Seers is already a rigged game.

EDIT: For all other orders, it's a mixture of doing your job, building connections, and being reliable for excess and extraneous conflicts and concerns within your Caucus. Taking it to the most extreme end of things for likely Order Status 5 candidates, the sort of people who become Adamant Sages, Epopts, Curators/Hierophants, Arch/Deacons, and Syndics are likely the sort of people who already perform those sorts of responsibilities at their tier/level of influence. Run your cults, fulfill your oaths, seek and preserve the sacred, enable liberation and unity, work with others and work towards the Order's ends, and you too can be the belle of the Convocation.

EDIT: Actually, it can't hurt to get specific, so.

• Adamantine Arrows
  • As a general rule, the Talon/First Talon/Thunderbolt Guardian/Adamant Sage structure of the Arrow is easy to grok as the military equivalent of private/captain/colonel/general (taking liberties, yes), and so the major things are how well you fulfill the duties given to you by your superiors, what others tasks(/oaths) you take on yourself, and how actively you lead within your capacity. The sort of duties you deal with are going to relate to the defense of Consilium's, the Caucus, your Cabal, and Sleepers, and in the offense against Seers, Scelesti, Rapt, Tremere, Abyssal entities, and other such things, as well as the supportive and infrastructural roles (militaries need chefs, lawyers, promoters, etc., and while not all of the backup stuff is stuff a Mage might need to do, it's stuff that is better handled with enlightened will moving things along). You can broadly summarize how you gain Status in terms of how many oaths you take on and fulfill, and skillfully delegate/cooperate in order to achieve those.
  • Banner Wardens possibly have a skewed relationship to the typical military approach, since the specific guardianship of certain cabals and their project can also entail how well those projects are moving along-the Warden may not be the leader of the cabal, but the effectiveness of the defence of the cabal is very rooted in how efficiently it goes, so a Banner Warden is likely to be judged (and hopefully praised) for how they help to keep things moving along to their conclusion, or at least in terms of getting results.
• Guardians of the Veil
  • Cultors make up the main majority of Guardians and their actions, and that action is rooted in drawing in prospects, judging them after some proper challenging of the character of proespects, and then aiding the worthy discover Awakening while distracting the unworthy from it. That latter part is a little hard to judge on, because the Watchtower will shine for who they will, so the main metrics a Guardian is going to be judged on is how many meaningful prospects are the evaluating(they will judge a Guardian if they seem to just be drawing in nobodies who pretty likely will never Awaken), and how well are they mentoring new mages before introducing them to the larger mage society. Missing the facilitation of a very worthy person into Awakening or not successfully deflecting an egrigiously unworthy person from Awakening might be a mar against their reputation, and likewise successfully leading a very worthy person into Awakening or mentoring a concern into a worthwhile member of society might be a feather in their cap, but the main virtue of a Guardian is evidence that they are paying attention and working to sort the wheat from the chaff.
  • Susceptors make up the other main majority of Guardians and their actions, and the main metric they're judged by is just how much actionable surveillance they're providing on the other Orders. Much like Cultors, missing an egregious problem child or not doing (proportionately) enough about them can be a mar, while catching and dealing with a problem child appropriately can be a feather in the cap, but the main metric is if the Guardian is proving they're paying attention to their fellows, identifying concerns, and coming up with actions to either guide them away from "sin" or plans to take out the determined.
  • Emissaries have the unpleasant problem of being a neccesary but undesired role as the public face of the secret police. You don't end up as the person who everyone has all the complaints and death threats for usually by doing well in the Guardians in general, and a lot of Guardains in this role are either inspiring doubts in their competence or have proven themselves as such by burning their cover and Masques in Significant Ways. That said, the Guardians do need good relations with the other Orders (well, as good a relationship as one can have as the Order of the Despised), and not a single one of them will deny how neccesary a good distraction is for their covert operations, and while one of the advantages of being a covert organization is that you have a lot of ways to get the directives and reports moved around to who needs them, the Emissary is a very handy method for just that. So, an Emissary is judged on exactly that-how well they handle the other Orders in regards to their actions, how well they get messages to where they need to be, and how well they help cover everyone else. An Emissary doing a good enough job as the sleight of hand for the Caucus will usually disappear when the work to get them into a workable covert position is done. An Emissary not doing that will probably just find they aren't getting the tools to do the job anymore, and may find themselves softly dropped from the Order entirely. Emissaries who fuck up...well, they tend to get fucked up.
• Mysterium
  • Acquisitors are generally judged on just what they're acquiring and how much they are. Bring in lots of good finds or some really valuable finds, the better off you are.
  • Censors have a similar role to Susceptors, except it's centered on items, magic, and Mysteries more than people, and in the general they get kudos for how many days it's been since an egregious magical problem happens, coupled with how demonstrable their watching is, usually through actionable reports. The less problems there are, the better a Censor does.
  • Savants are judged by how well they're acting as a repository of occult knowledge, and just how much they are. The more they become a walking library on particular subjects, the higher their Status.
• Silver Ladder
  • Pretty much every thearch is judged by how successful their Cryptopolies (or, at least, their contribution and direction in a Cryptopoli) are, in terms of how much power they're bringing to the order, how ardent their members are, and of course how many people are Awakening in them. If you wanna be respected in the latter, you need to have a really good cult.
  • You can blanket explain how Acolytes, Lictors, Factotums, and Clavigers gain status by basically doing their jobs well on top of their cult growth and rewards. Are the Acolytes keeping the Ladder running smoothly and well informed? Are the Lictors keeping up the regular reports and policing action? Are Factotums giving due diligence to the Lex Magica, both thoroughly representing people as needed in Consilium's and Cauceses while also keeping these processes moving at an appropriate pace? Are the Clavigers building powerful relationships with other organizations and representing the Silver's Ladder's beliefs and ideals in meaningful ways? More Status.
• The Free Council
  • The Free Council is notable as being the only order that can't ignore the role of popularity in their Status. Sure, being popular is a subtly important matter in all the other Orders(even the Guardians), but the Free Council is just shy of having to openly admit to it. If you are an influential and charismatic person who people listen and take voting direction from, then you will inevitably get high status in their Assemblies, with it's final form of that being a Syndic.
  • Otherwise, how diligent are you doing your job in accordance to the will of the people (or, at least, the will of an elected Strategos or an elevated Syndic)? If you're an Emissary, are you doing a good job handling relations? Are you getting in useful reports as a Citizen Agent? Are you being responsive as a Minuteman? Are you being responsible and secure as a Letter Carrier? Then congrats, Status.
• The Seers of the Throne
  • To advance, rip down the person above you. To not lose status, kick the people below you.
  • What are you bringing to the table? What are you taking advantage of? How well is that going? The more control you have over the world, the more you twist and exacerbate the problems of the world to lock down the human spirit and otherwise keep gods from contending with the Exarchs, the more you're rewarded. Honestly, though, that all comes back around to you ability to kick down the people below you and tear down the people above you.

As a broad thing, though, unless you're an absolute top dog in an order, you generally have to do more than your job-much like in life, Mages are more keen to support those who are going above and beyond, either in terms of helping out more of their peers on top of doing their job, or going an extra mile to advance the interests of the order on the whole while doing their job. Mages who tread water might not neccesarily lose rank, but might drift down in terms of status-maybe not a whole lot, if they're up high enough, but some.


*Mystery Commands as a Condition that can be read, Exarchial Yantras being readable, the influence of Crowns and Demense on the general soul-shape of the actor.

[Seraph Kitty]

Regarding the Mysterium specifically, I favor the interpretation that their advancement in the order is entirely predicated on initiations into the Mysteriorum Atlantean (or their local variant) - and as such occurs when they have sufficient experience to understand the next mystery.

Their Order book does point out that the assigned jobs in the Order, especially for the middling ranks, tends to impede advancement, rather than help - because being an administrator, though necessary and requiring a lot of trust, knowledge, and people skills, ways into your opportunities to pursue ever stranger mysteries. Whereas those who become a magister (status 4) can basically delegate everything and pursue their own research without distraction - or run an athenaeum if they want.

So I run it as being all about personal enlightenment. And they read your fate and declare what contribution you make will demonstrate readiness for the next level, so…. Bad news for anyone trying to get ahead politically, but good news for the obsessive academics actually attracted to the order… if they can figure out how to cheat, shirk, and delegate any duty that’s holding them back


Edit: I’ve been running a 1:1 game for a while with a Mysterium mage as the PC, who just got to status 5 - so I’ve spend a lot of time thinking about the details of rank, and tweaking around the Atlantean Mystery

[Cauthon]

Mages who tread water might not neccesarily lose rank, but might drift down in terms of status-maybe not a whole lot, if they're up high enough, but some.

Worth noting is that the Silver Ladder have this as an acknowledged part of their culture - the Silver Ladder 1e book talks about how "retiree" Masters who are of low Status and kept busy with trivial jobs aren't too uncommon. Being a Deacon is stressful, and sometimes it's a relief to just leave it all behind.

[ArcaneArts]

Regarding the Mysterium specifically, I favor the interpretation that their advancement in the order is entirely predicated on initiations into the Mysteriorum Atlantean (or their local variant) - and as such occurs when they have sufficient experience to understand the next mystery.

Their Order book does point out that the assigned jobs in the Order, especially for the middling ranks, tends to impede advancement, rather than help - because being an administrator, though necessary and requiring a lot of trust, knowledge, and people skills, ways into your opportunities to pursue ever stranger mysteries. Whereas those who become a magister (status 4) can basically delegate everything and pursue their own research without distraction - or run an athenaeum if they want.

So I run it as being all about personal enlightenment. And they read your fate and declare what contribution you make will demonstrate readiness for the next level, so…. Bad news for anyone trying to get ahead politically, but good news for the obsessive academics actually attracted to the order… if they can figure out how to cheat, shirk, and delegate any duty that’s holding them back


Edit: I’ve been running a 1:1 game for a while with a Mysterium mage as the PC, who just got to status 5 - so I’ve spend a lot of time thinking about the details of rank, and tweaking around the Atlantean Mystery

There's a reason why I make a general point out of it not being enough to do your job. THe Mysterium makes a general point of it, but people in general are subject to taking a task done for granted over a while at the same time not according time to let people explore and build, and Mages in general are universally more valued in their mastery of the Arcana and arcane secrets. Even the Arrow and the Guardians, the two organizations who are probably the most interested in people doing their jobs and invested in rewarding it, defaultly assign more value to a master of an Arcana against a rank 5 member of their order, in the odd instances where one is not also the other.

It's foolish to ignore the power and substance of political clout and acclaim, of course-but that power doesn't quite eclipse the ability to reshape the world.

[Michael]

I suspect at Status 5, you probably don't have to actively look for jobs. People are going to come to you.

[ArcaneArts]

I suspect at Status 5, you probably don't have to actively look for jobs. People are going to come to you.

At Status 5*, you're the one making the jobs. Of course, this is because your job and goals have so many moving parts you have to.

*Unless, of course, you're not at Status 5 for the conventional reasons.

[Michael]

At Status 5*, you're the one making the jobs. Of course, this is because your job and goals have so many moving parts you have to.

My point is, you don't have to look for ways to make yourself useful. You're the person the Order looks to for guidance.

[lbeaumanior]

My point is, you don't have to look for ways to make yourself useful. You're the person the Order looks to for guidance.

So Status 5 is kind of self-sustaining?

[Cauthon]

So Status 5 is kind of self-sustaining?

In the same way being a Pope, or a politician is. As long as people support you, you have power, and you'll always have the knowledge and dirty laundry you've accrued while in the post regardless.

[Michael]

So Status 5 is kind of self-sustaining?

More or less, I think.

My impression from the books is that for the Diamond Orders, a status 5 mage is basically a kind of living saint (or at least they're treated that way). Most of them basically cut you loose at that point; aside from the Silver Ladder, I believe the magisters of the other Orders are basically all allowed to step back from day-to-day administration. They're available to provide guidance, and they're there in a crisis, but otherwise they're generally off doing their own thing.

I feel that that kind of role is probably quite hard to mess up. Even if your advice is bad, or you step in to mess up a crisis, mages are going to blame themselves or each other before they blame the magister.

The big exception is the Ladder, and... well... it explains pretty clearly why the other Orders do what they do.