Tome of the Pentacle on DTRPG

[Isator Levi]

Just to clarify- it is not that I have any objections towards the name, as the name does makes sense in that context. It is just that when there was a real life organization with practically the same name it creates a confusing situation for those who know about the subject (as I said, I didn't even realized while reading the timeline that the Synhedrion there actually referred to the cult and not to the RL Sanhedrin).

I think that would put it in line with all of the Great Cults. The distinction from their real life (what would be seen in-character as their Sleeper) counterparts seems to necessarily come from context, because such culturally embedded names reflect the typical nature of mages in the time before the Orders.

[ArcaneArts]

Cross checking understanding: The Great Rights in the TotP are Gold Laws, where the Precepts (of Secrecy, Protectorate, Hubris, and War) mentioned in the core are Silver Laws, correct?

[Satchel]

Cross checking understanding: The Great Rights in the TotP are Gold Laws, where the Precepts (of Secrecy, Protectorate, Hubris, and War) mentioned in the core are Silver Laws, correct?

Correct, or at the very least the Precepts describe elements of most Consilia's body of law in the form of direct Silver ruling or Bronze precedent derived from or elaborating on the Great Rights.

[ArcaneArts]

Correct, or at the very least the Precepts describe elements of most Consilia's body of law in the form of direct Silver ruling or Bronze precedent derived from or elaborating on the Great Rights.

Cool beans. Second question, and possibly thornier-The Order specific Merits (Adamant Hand, Masques, Egregore, Lex Magica, Techne for the modern Orders, Exoteric Arete and Perfecti for the Lost Orders) all have individual reasons for working the way they do, but broadly speaking the most basic metaphysic at work is a mage attaching their Supernal identity/Nimbus to the grander symbols of the Orders*. Given that the Mysterium perfected the art of Egregore enough to be it's signature merit, do the Keeper's and Pancryptiate's dissolution no longer provide the symbolic infrastructure to support the changes that Exoteric Arete and Perfecti offer to individual mages, or is it reasonable that that mass makes them viable spoils for investing the Mysteries of the Lost Orders?

(Hell, I'm probably really wildly off target)

EDIT: Unrelated to that, While I know people weren't crazy about Swords and Shields in first edition Duel Arcanes, making it an option after the core presentation is a good middle ground on that, and as a fan of that approach, I'm appreciative of how they improved upon it.

*bit of an idiot reading, but I'd rather be brief with the question.

[Isator Levi]

I would be inclined towards it generally not being possible to replicate the old Merits, more on a basis that there's a dependence on being immersed in the culture and ritual. Theoretically the Keepers or Pancryptiates could be rebuilt enough to provide that, but I think one couldn't do it on their own.

[ArcaneArts]

I would be inclined towards it generally not being possible to replicate the old Merits, more on a basis that there's a dependence on being immersed in the culture and ritual. Theoretically the Keepers or Pancryptiates could be rebuilt enough to provide that, but I think one couldn't do it on their own.

I figure there's only three viable answers, and it's all argumentation from there:

1) It's no longer possible to take advantage of those Signature Merits at all.
2) The Mysterium can technically still avail themselves of those Signature Merits because their parent orders are part of their makeup, and just generally don't have it come up because neither is as helpful to the Mysterium's ends as Egregore.
3) Those Signature Merits can be earned as an expression of digging into the Lost Orders as a Mystery, since occult symbols don't exactly fade away, and while they're tied to the Order symbols, the lack of active presence of those orders makes them more grabbable by whatever means.

I'll freely admit I'm motivated by liking both of them and am interested in ways not-Mysterium Orders could avail themselves of them (and quite frankly, if I want it enough for a game, I can just do it), but I think getting into what is the more probable canon reality of those will be helpful for nailing down what exactly is happening with the Order Signature Merits.

[Isator Levi]

I think getting into what is the more probable canon reality of those will be helpful for nailing down what exactly is happening with the Order Signature Merits.

For a start, I feel as though the most straightforward answer is that the Ascension of the Corpus Author begins a process that effectively supersedes (or at least merges) the Supernal resonance of the preceding Orders, that is effectively completed when the Apocalypse Mysteriorum came to a close.

I view the Order Merits as a thing that can emerge from the basis of the theories of the three sects. The Diamond is genuinely on to something when they say that there's an idealized magical society that they can be empowered by modelling themselves after, and while the Merits aren't the sole expression of that (perhaps not even the most important). I'd say assuming their modern form was something informed by the finer points of the philosophies, so that something like the Lex Magica wasn't the only form of Merit for the vizier mages it could take, but it takes that shape as a result of some combination of deliberate refinement in theory and mysticism until it becomes something taught quite smoothly to new initiates, and reinforcement by the Ascension of thearchs.

Likewise the Free Council and techne. Individual Nameless Orders don't have quite the same basis for such capabilities, but the theory that weaves them together into a collective provides a foundation for a distinct kind of culture magic.

And the Seers, well, they don't really have an Order Merit, they have their Prelacies, which ultimately fits their theory of reality and power being imposed from on high. A Ministry isn't something with the resonance that a Pentacle Order has, it's a bunch of Seers (often under the guidance of at least Prelates) gathering around a theory of what will be most pleasing to an Exarch or a most effective way of enacting their will or a pattern within the world in which their presence is most apparent. And even the Seers of the Throne as a whole is ultimately a somewhat tenuous network of all of these disparate cults, which is why it took a lot longer for them to crystallize as a sect (and why it took a Ministry modelling itself off of centralized government).

So with the Keepers and the Pancryptiates, I'd say that even if such resonance still exists, tapping into it without being able to play out the role in a larger magical society is tricky. I would at least preserve the idea that they could co-exist with the Mysterium by saying that the Corpus Author didn't so much remove their place in the magical society as propose an alternative approach to the same position that proved compelling across a broad spectrum (and the resulting Ascension helped give that more weight).

[ArcaneArts]

I'll have to chew on that.

Having finished Chapter 3 and done a scan of the remaining two chapters to see how much is left, I'm surprised no one has mentioned that the number of undocumented canon Crowns has dropped down to one, as the Ruin has put forth the Crown of Inevitability in the New York Chapter. Only the Psychopomp's crown remains to be written.

[Dave Brookshaw]

Psychopomp's Crown was slated for Fallen Worlds, as it interfaces with ghost mechanics that aren't in Mage's corebook, wete invented for Geist, and would have been in it.

Namely, it lets the Seer adjust the Integrity or equivalent trait of someone who dies in her presence by her Death dots, effectively letting her choose who does and doesn't leave a ghost. The Mana spend power would have been something about effective rank, maybe.

[FallenEco]

Psychopomp's Crown was slated for Fallen Worlds, as it interfaces with ghost mechanics that aren't in Mage's corebook, wete invented for Geist, and would have been in it.

Namely, it lets the Seer adjust the Integrity or equivalent trait of someone who dies in her presence by her Death dots, effectively letting her choose who does and doesn't leave a ghost. The Mana spend power would have been something about effective rank, maybe.

Was? As in, not anymore? I was looking forward to that book

[Isator Levi]

I'm a bit uncertain how a power of forcing supernatural powers to cost more and ceding some of that cost to the target expresses the themes of the Ruin or a quality of Inevitability.

[FallenEco]

I'm a bit uncertain how a power of forcing supernatural powers to cost more and ceding some of that cost to the target expresses the themes of the Ruin or a quality of Inevitability.

"You can't stop me, only slow down the advance of my victory. Even your resistance feeds my power."
A bit on the nose, but penalty of good villainy to be had.

[Second Chances]

Was? As in, not anymore? I was looking forward to that book

It is no longer on the Current Projects list and I think most of us are aware (wise?) to Paradox’s habit of not approving new CofD for whatever reason.

Unfortunately.

[Isator Levi]

"You can't stop me, only slow down the advance of my victory. Even your resistance feeds my power."
A bit on the nose, but penalty of good villainy to be had.

Maybe if that disrupted effects or reinforced the Prelate in some way, but it wouldn't really be what I'd get out of increasing the cost a little bit.

A declaration of "you cannot stop me" would feel a bit hollow if the only thing they get out of somebody throwing, say, some paralytic magic at them is it being a little more inconvenient for the attacker to actually stop them.

This all aside from the point that it's a standard of inevitable that I think has nothing to do with the Ruin. The Ruin isn't about her own servants becoming unstoppable, he's about the futility of people's hopes and dreams. Why isn't the Crown about something related to inevitability of failure or loss?

I can't really understand calling something like this, abstract in the extreme even in the most generous reading of its connection to name and Exarch, when placed alongside a Crown of Scarcity that does something like remove a source of Mana, or Agency to make a prelate have more personal control over their own timeline. The other Crowns have a tendency to be a lot more direct (and as a result, have a lot more brevity in their write-ups; I find this one to have a lot of intricacy to describe an effect that doesn't end up being very evocative).

It's even the only written Prelacy that doesn't have anything referencing the associated Arcanum at all. It would at least feel a little more connected if it had anything at all to do with how good one is at Fate.

And, well, I find it a bit unimpressive compared to many other Crown effects.

[totalgit]

Book = Meh.