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  • #31
    Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
    King Solomon (why not call him Shlomo ben David haMelekh?) could not possibly have been a Guardian, he predates them by nearly a millenium. Also, Guardian philosophy, like that of all the Diamond, is intrinsically Hellenist...making a Jewish king, and the only Jew Jews actually care about mentioned in the book I've seen, a part of hellenist group that doesn't even exist yet is an odd choice.
    There's a few instances of this in the time line-for me, the standouts are when Exarchial Cults are labelled as Ministries long before the Seers and that terminology were codified.

    My general take has been to read those as "proto-" versions of such-in this case, Shlomo den David haMelekh would have been a proto-Guardian. It's something to throw into the errata bin, however.

    Originally posted by espritdecalmar View Post
    There's a lot I'm liking about this book, but the "Global Overview" section is idiotic from top to bottom, I'm sorry to say. You get two paragraphs to talk about a place and Brazil doesn't believe in the Supernal and the US is full of Nazi-mages.
    In mild defense, America is currently* having a lot of flirtation with Nazi ideology, and I can't imagine that being limited to the Sleepers.

    *currently, she says.
    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 05-19-2023, 04:31 AM.


    Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
    Feminine pronouns, please.

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    • #32
      Can anyone give a quick preview on what is said about Alexandria on p.55? Also, are there any new spells?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Obsidian Pharaoh View Post
        Can anyone give a quick preview on what is said about Alexandria on p.55? Also, are there any new spells?
        Castoff of the Library of Alexandria, under the protection of the Adamantine Arrow. And at least 3 in chapter 1.
        Last edited by ArcaneArts; 05-19-2023, 05:45 AM.


        Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
        Feminine pronouns, please.

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        • #34
          The Memento spell in page 19 is pretty cool, it reminds me of the Mnemosyne amulets the Tremere could make in VTM. But it confuses me a bit, since it mentions the effect is not visible to Active Mage Sight, because its not a complete mind. But page 91 of the core book mentions that "Mage Sight highlights all phenomena related to the Arcana used", the object being infused with the memories isn't in Twilight either, which means that a mage with Mind 1 should be able to perceive it. I am also not sure why it requires Matter 2 as well, since the Possession spell (found on page 164 of the core book ) establishes a precedent of a Patterning of Mind being sufficient to transfer sentience to a car, a robot, a computer, a desk, etc.
          Last edited by KaiserAfini; 05-19-2023, 08:29 AM.


          New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

          The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
          The Szary Stra┼╝nik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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          • #35
            Don't have the book yet. Are Uchronia a thing more just world building flavour of are there aspects for active game use?

            Edit: yeah doesn't feel like something I will bother with or use in regards to Irem.
            Last edited by TyrannicalRabbit; 05-22-2023, 09:30 AM.


            Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment. CofD not getting books so we can get fed WoD5e is an insult.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post
              Don't have the book yet. Are Uchronia a thing more just world building flavour of are there aspects for active game use?
              They're a way of describing different levels/categories of "this event no longer happened in history," from Gold uchronia like Aponoia to Silver and Bronze stuff produced by phenomena outside of normal Awakened magic (the former being the product of godlike powers and needing the same weight to actually access, the latter being readable with normal Time spells, both further divided into Open alternate branches and Closed parallel timelines) to the little Iron splinters produced by Shifting Sands and the like. There's a couple of new spells introduced that make playing magical historian/antihistorian easier, too.
              Last edited by Satchel; 05-19-2023, 09:53 PM. Reason: Correcting former/latter typo.


              Resident Lore-Hound
              Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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              • #37
                Overall, I kinda inhaled the book and it's very, very good. I'll find the time to express that better later, but Chapter 4 delights the hell out of me. But also espritdecalmar's points are things I'd agree with, though I think a bit overwrought.

                Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                In mild defense, America is currently* having a lot of flirtation with Nazi ideology, and I can't imagine that being limited to the Sleepers.

                *currently, she says.
                This is true, but it probably could have done with less word count. "Has Nazis" should really not be the most interesting thing about a region, even as story hooks, and the Operation Oracle and the Company of the Codex fiascos were both already adequately discussed in Chapter 1 and also other books.

                It would've been nice to get an explanation as to why Argentina and Australia are considered part of that "region" instead; I feel like they were largely lumped in for lack of anywhere better to put them. Maybe my familiarity with New Age astrology is lacking, but like... why "Aquarian Satellites"?

                I'm also a bit baffled that the Nameless War "blazed the hottest" in these places. Being colonizer asshats is established to have been going on for a while; what was special about the specific few years of the Nameless War that merits mention in the Aquarian Satellites section?


                I call the Integrity-analogue the "subjective stat".
                An explanation how to use Social Manuevering.
                Guanxi Explanations: 1, 2, 3.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Errol216 View Post
                  "Has Nazis" should really not be the most interesting thing about a region, even as story hooks, and the Operation Oracle and the Company of the Codex fiascos were both already adequately discussed in Chapter 1 and also other books.
                  I think that's a bit harsh. The point isn't that the area has Nazis in it (indeed, Oracle was about 75 years ago now, how many are even left?), it's that the fallout has ruined the relationship between the two Orders.

                  It would've been nice to get an explanation as to why Argentina and Australia are considered part of that "region" instead; I feel like they were largely lumped in for lack of anywhere better to put them.
                  I took the commonality to be the particular style of settler colonialism.

                  I'm also a bit baffled that the Nameless War "blazed the hottest" in these places. Being colonizer asshats is established to have been going on for a while; what was special about the specific few years of the Nameless War that merits mention in the Aquarian Satellites section?
                  I think the idea is that the colonisers moving in, also hated the Diamond.


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
                    My biggest problems are:

                    The use of "Yeshua" to refer to Jesus is giving me really gross Messianic vibes. Just call him Jesus if it's so important to include him.

                    King Solomon (why not call him Shlomo ben David haMelekh?) could not possibly have been a Guardian, he predates them by nearly a millenium. Also, Guardian philosophy, like that of all the Diamond, is intrinsically Hellenist...making a Jewish king, and the only Jew Jews actually care about mentioned in the book I've seen, a part of hellenist group that doesn't even exist yet is an odd choice.

                    And, of course, the Haifa writeup. Mt. Carmel is not some equal opportunity holy site. It was a Canaanite holy site that became a Jewish holy site after the northern Canaanites were assimilated into Israelite culture. The "contemplative Catholic order of Carmelites" only "found their home there" after the Catholic invaders massacred the Jewish population during the Crusades.
                    I assume the use of 'Yeshua' is to emphasise him as a historical subject and not to assume any particular relation to the later Christian religion. Does anyone know how he is usually called in academic biblical studies?

                    In contrast, the character of King Solomon, within the fiction of the game, is explicitly a mage and comes from the legendary image used by Western occultists. So it makes sense to me to de-emphasize his historicity then with the later Hellenic name.

                    The Guardians were founded by the Quiet around 1000BCE in the timeline entry just before Solomon's. What about their philosophy strikes you as being essentially Hellenist? Beyond the fact that the setting itself assumes a Neo-Platonic and Gnostic cosmology and is therefore Hellenist from our point of view.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
                      21C Hermit One thing of interest with the House is that their Capstone is (I think Indefinite via Conditional Duration? The activation ritual makes it effectively always-on anyway) Veil of Moments, which ends and needs to be reactivated if they leave the city. Since it doesn't explicitly make an exception to the "no spending XP under VoM" rule, there's a good case to be made for the upper echelons of the house becoming a council of stagnant immortals.
                      So couple of questions there:
                      1. Is confirmed then that we can use Arcana Attainments on Legacy Attainments?
                      2. Does the usage of the Conditional Duration Attainment cost some of the Attainment reach or is "free"?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
                        So couple of questions there:
                        1. Is confirmed then that we can use Arcana Attainments on Legacy Attainments?
                        2. Does the usage of the Conditional Duration Attainment cost some of the Attainment reach or is "free"?
                        Still no explicit confirmation. It supports the theory in that the Attainment ends automatically when the Metropolitan exits the city, but it doesn't confirm the theory either because a Metropolitan can master the Legacy with only Fate 1. So it could just as easily be thematic rule-bending.

                        For homebrew, I'd still err on the side of "Utility Attainments for the relevant Arcana can be incorporated into Legacy Attainments of that tier or higher". They'd be "free", because there isn't a cost to them anyway (beyond Mana for certain ones).


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                        I make Legacies when I'm bored. They're of middling quality, but have a look if you're interested. Advice and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MorganG View Post

                          I assume the use of 'Yeshua' is to emphasise him as a historical subject and not to assume any particular relation to the later Christian religion. Does anyone know how he is usually called in academic biblical studies?
                          He's called Jesus in Christian studies.

                          And nothing in the gospels is historically accurate and all non-Christian attestations are from after his supposed death.

                          In contrast, the character of King Solomon, within the fiction of the game, is explicitly a mage and comes from the legendary image used by Western occultists. So it makes sense to me to de-emphasize his historicity then with the later Hellenic name.
                          So it's okay to appropriate a Jewish figure for purely Western Occultist purposes? Are Jews not allowed to have our own culture outside what others want to steal?

                          Also, you are flat out wrong, much of King Solomon's mystical image comes from Jewish sources, which are Levantine.

                          It is a Choice to emphasize the importance of a figure to a group who regularly murdered Jews, but deemphasize a figure actually important to Jews.

                          The Guardians were founded by the Quiet around 1000BCE in the timeline entry just before Solomon's. What about their philosophy strikes you as being essentially Hellenist? Beyond the fact that the setting itself assumes a Neo-Platonic and Gnostic cosmology and is therefore Hellenist from our point of view.
                          And this directly contradicts existing published material, like Dark Eras, as well as a later entry describing proto-Guardians the New Constructionists.


                          proin's Legacy hub

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                          • #43
                            Okay, so full-ish book review, since I really enjoyed so much of it, and I have things to say.

                            The Magical Histories in Chapter 1 were really interesting (and I think doing the profiles was a very good choice). I was a bit disappointed to discover that the Lost Orders were literally just the ones we knew about and not random other Orders that used to be kicking around, but I guess that makes sense. Chapter 2 is all "settings interesting in these ways" and I generally approve of all that. Special mention to the description of the Orders' various strongholds in the Shadow, which I enjoyed a lot. Were those in a previous book? I haven't read every 1e book, so I imagine they might not be as entirely new to others as they were to me.

                            Chapter 3 gets into inter-Consilium politics. And here, I want to say that, a few years back, I'd started work on mapping out chains of hierarchy in mage society and trying to put together a framework for describing them. I feel like Chapters 3 and 4 cover most of what I'd been shooting for, and did a much better job than I could have, and to that end, I am extremely happy with this book. A lot of this is an excellent set of tools for helping STs set up political arenas within the Pentacle.

                            I'm not sure how I feel about how Factions were implemented (some are actual organizations; others are just vague affiliations), but they're definitely flavorful on the whole and for the purpose of demonstrating heterogeneity within Orders, they're perfect. I'd have to think more about how I'd do it myself, but most of what bothers me is the implication of how insitutionalized stuff is when I don't think it usually has that kind of formality. (OTOH, they're Mages, so I could imagine one guy calling himself The Ashen as if he represented an entire guild when it's really just him and one other guy who can stand him.)

                            Chapter 4 made me realize I haven't read the Contagion Chronicle yet, because social currency feels like a good system to me and I didn't see its first iteration. The gist is that there's a way to express the give-and-take of cabal members who aren't just a friend group and have agendas that overlap but don't quite see eye-to-eye. Representing this dynamic with what are basically poker chips seems good. (And while the bookkeeping would make it prohibitive on a scale larger than a cabal, it's definitely a good model for thinking about how Guan Xi works: it feels transactional but is deliberately bad for accounting, is ephemeral and contextual, and the final recourse of yelling at each other is the right kind of gambling.) I wish I could see some APs of this in action. The lists of character archetypes, aspirations, and obsessions are also really useful for more than just Convocations, naturally.

                            Chapter 5 likewise felt good to me, but I don't usually spend much time on setting stuff, and I've spent enough hours listening to my New Yorker friends tell me what a great city it is already, so. Love the bodega cats. Feline Friend is definitely the best Merit.


                            I call the Integrity-analogue the "subjective stat".
                            An explanation how to use Social Manuevering.
                            Guanxi Explanations: 1, 2, 3.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

                              He's called Jesus in Christian studies.

                              And nothing in the gospels is historically accurate and all non-Christian attestations are from after his supposed death.



                              So it's okay to appropriate a Jewish figure for purely Western Occultist purposes? Are Jews not allowed to have our own culture outside what others want to steal?

                              Also, you are flat out wrong, much of King Solomon's mystical image comes from Jewish sources, which are Levantine.

                              It is a Choice to emphasize the importance of a figure to a group who regularly murdered Jews, but deemphasize a figure actually important to Jews.



                              And this directly contradicts existing published material, like Dark Eras, as well as a later entry describing proto-Guardians the New Constructionists.
                              The gospels certainly do have historical accuracy, but that's beside the point.

                              It is odd that they chose this with the wording. I would even say needless. Just say jesus and king Solomon to keep recognizable names. Or use both their less well known names. It's inconsistent and in my opinion a weird attempt at not offending Christians (which I doubt even a sizeable minority plays these games, at least not fairly devout ones)

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
                                Just say jesus and king Solomon to keep recognizable names. Or use both their less well known names.
                                It does that. The timeline refers to "Yeshua ben Yosef, aka Jesus".

                                Additionally, it does the same for the Prophet Muhammad. He's mentioned as 'Muhammad ibn Abdullah'.

                                It's inconsistent and in my opinion a weird attempt at not offending Christians
                                I don't see how you draw that conclusion. If anything it reads as slightly sarcastic to me.


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