Tome of the Pentacle on DTRPG

[Primordial newcomer]

It does that. The timeline refers to "Yeshua ben Yosef, aka Jesus".

Additionally, it does the same for the Prophet Muhammad. He's mentioned as 'Muhammad ibn Abdullah'.



I don't see how you draw that conclusion. If anything it reads as slightly sarcastic to me.

My apologies. I'm only going by what others have said.

[MorganG]

So it's okay to appropriate a Jewish figure for purely Western Occultist purposes? Are Jews not allowed to have our own culture outside what others want to steal?

Also, you are flat out wrong, much of King Solomon's mystical image comes from Jewish sources, which are Levantine.

It is a Choice to emphasize the importance of a figure to a group who regularly murdered Jews, but deemphasize a figure actually important to Jews.

I apologise for the lack of clarity in my first post. You raised the interesting question of the naming decisions and I was offering a guess as to what the writers' thought process may have been.

I did not mean to suggest that King Solomon-as-mystic was an invention of gentile occultists, nor suggest that such a perspective is unproblematic.

King Solomon is presented in the book as being an important positive figure in the history of the Pentacle. He is a wise and just sorcerer-king, openly using magic to rule Sleepers and keep the peace with other supernaturals.

In contrast, the book more or less implies that the religions of Christianity and Islam are, on balance, serving the interests of the Father.

And this directly contradicts existing published material, like Dark Eras, as well as a later entry describing proto-Guardians the New Constructionists.

The way I understand it is that the Guardians (as well as the Silver Ladder and Adamantine Arrow) were founded in ancient times, but were only one among very many such small orders. Over time they grew and amalgamated with other, sufficiently like-minded, orders, while keeping the Guardians name, until they are one of the largest and in a position to co-found the Pentacle. So with reference to the New Constructionists, for example, 'proto-Guardians' may just mean, 'eventually merges with the already-existing Guardians'.

It's been a while since I've read 'To The Strongest' so I will have to give that a reread before commenting on any inconsistencies there.

[reaperfrost8]

I apologise for the lack of clarity in my first post. You raised the interesting question of the naming decisions and I was offering a guess as to what the writers' thought process may have been.

I did not mean to suggest that King Solomon-as-mystic was an invention of gentile occultists, nor suggest that such a perspective is unproblematic.

King Solomon is presented in the book as being an important positive figure in the history of the Pentacle. He is a wise and just sorcerer-king, openly using magic to rule Sleepers and keep the peace with other supernaturals.

In contrast, the book more or less implies that the religions of Christianity and Islam are, on balance, serving the interests of the Father.

Uhhhh that still sounds bad unless I am missing something?

[wyrdhamster]

Someone can sum-up me how authors solve Diamond Orders creation officially in Tome of Pentacle?

The way I understand it is that the Guardians (as well as the Silver Ladder and Adamantine Arrow) were founded in ancient times, but were only one among very many such small orders. Over time they grew and amalgamated with other, sufficiently like-minded, orders, while keeping the Guardians name, until they are one of the largest and in a position to co-found the Pentacle. So with reference to the New Constructionists, for example, 'proto-Guardians' may just mean, 'eventually merges with the already-existing Guardians'.

I'm not sure how relevant it is now - but when To the Strongest come up, I was doing MtAw fan history take on existing gameline sources. Darshanas, proto-Orders, where all around the world Nameless Orders that looked kinda similar to Global Orders that would come after them.

And there was some event that changed all the Arcadian Mysteries ( Greeks ), Karpani ( Persian ), Manthra Sadhaki ( Indian ) and Weret-Hakau ( Egyptian ) sorcerers Cults become the Diamond Orders we know from gameline lore. In my fan take it was first Atheneum in Library of Alexandria ( for Keepers of the Word ) and first Punic War ( for Adamantine Arrow ) - and there after New Constructions forming Guardians of the Veil forces in Rome, rest of Omphalos cults to form Silver Ladder in Orders race. It all takes from 297 to 218BCE. On start of Second Punic war at 218 BCE we have all the Diamond Orders in Rome we know.

King Solomon is presented in the book as being an important positive figure in the history of the Pentacle. He is a wise and just sorcerer-king, openly using magic to rule Sleepers and keep the peace with other supernaturals.

In contrast, the book more or less implies that the religions of Christianity and Islam are, on balance, serving the interests of the Father.

What's weird to me, that from all the gameline lore - King Salomon is the Silver Ladder ideal. He is literal Sage of their stories. He commands magic in open for Sleepers to lead them. He is contrast to Guardians of Veils ideal. Very strange lore connotation here.

[FallenEco]

What's weird to me, that from all the gameline lore - King Salomon is the Silver Ladder ideal. He is literal Sage of their stories. He commands magic in open for Sleepers to lead them. He is contrast to Guardians of Veils ideal. Very strange lore connotation here.

I agree; that is something called out in the write up of the Clavicularius Legacy writeup in "Legacies: the Sublime". The one that claims to be his modern day inheritors.
Was this something that was in the Guardian's splatbook? It has been a long time since I read that one, so if that is where the explanation is...

[proindrakenzol]

I agree; that is something called out in the write up of the Clavicularius Legacy writeup in "Legacies: the Sublime". The one that claims to be his modern day inheritors.
Was this something that was in the Guardian's splatbook? It has been a long time since I read that one, so if that is where the explanation is...

Important to note, the Clavicularius's claim is laughable. Their lore is based around Christian concepts that wouldn't exist for more than a thousand years afrer Solomon's death.

They are very much the Western Occultist appropriators.

[Errol216]

For people interested in what Solomon is credited with and how we know, I'd recommend the Youtube channel ESOTERICA. There've been two videos specifically on the subject in the last year:

• The Testament of Solomon - The Origins of Solomonic Magic, Occultism & Demonology (28m)
• Earliest Manual of the Magic of Solomon - Origin of the Lesser Key of Solomon & Medieval Necromancy (29m)

Dr Sledge is Jewish and is an academic whose field is specifically historical magical texts, and everything I've seen from him has been well-sourced and very clear on provenance, so I'm fairly inclined to trust his takes.

[FallenEco]

Important to note, the Clavicularius's claim is laughable. Their lore is based around Christian concepts that wouldn't exist for more than a thousand years afrer Solomon's death.

They are very much the Western Occultist appropriators.

Agreed. But pretty much all Western Occultism is appropriated. Very little survived aside from what could pass for Christianity and even that was strip mined so many times over centuries.
Academia developed rules not only for ethics and intellectual integrity, but also citations to limit this sort of behaviour.
This is not new for people; taking stuff out of context to justify their bs is very human and honestly, it is on brand for Awakening's Hubris.

Let me be very clear; the "broad church" mentality of the Orders, the very thing that lets them be so varied and allows so many character concepts within the group basically necessitates SOME degree of appropriation. All this additional history basically confirms this, even without all pseudo-imperialism. The distinction between the Great Cults and the darshanas is very much indicative of how this sort of things plays out. The Diamond Orders are roles and do their best to absorb cultural groups of magicians, dividing them, citing their broad similarities and sharing resources. Ideas disseminate within the wider Order. Some mages try out the assumed concepts, without understanding the context, empower it with their connection to the Supernal Realms so that it's functional.
When they find out, some may try to adopt the correct practices or integrate the new context to their existing practices. Others may dismiss the real world philosophies behind the inspirations as misguided "sleeper misconceptions". To me, this to be expected of the Awakened communities. This creates new sub-factions and divides. Then they intermix with concepts from other parts of the world and centauries/decades apart.
Heck, the Free Council has made such misguided errors the cornerstone of their "broad church"; as below, so above/Humanity is Magical. Keep in mind, the Free Council is also the Order most likely to just take the Great Cults/Nameless Orders/cultural magicians as they are, rather than separate them or change them.

Important, famous wizards/witches make good figureheads to rally around, so I can understand why all the Orders would want to claim them as their own. People like King Solomon, Merlin and the like would quite a feather in the hat of any claimant. The fact is, we have sources saying that a Silver Ladder legacy and the Guardians of the Veil claim is was one of theirs. Both would be utterly unrecognizable to Shlomo ben David haMelekh if he were to encounter him today, assuming he had even encountered their predecessors in the first place.
Given how much information on the Myrddin has been developed over the years and how much harder it is for magi to investigate Solomon over Merlin, the King is a 'safer' claim as it is harder to disprove.

I don't think that this is done with malice and omitting him entirely could easily be argued as erasure. I very much feel like such 'charged' individuals should be handled with care. The description on how the Weret-Hekau see Imhotep in his sidebar on page 22; he wouldn't recognize those who see themselves as carrying his legacy. Admit that there is a disconnect between real world practices, remind people that this is a game and try to be respectful.
How would you portray King Solomon/Shlomo ben David haMelekh in Mage: the Awakening respectfully? I wouldn't know where to begin.

Edit: Errol216 posted a (theoretical) starting point while I was ranting. Have fun

[proindrakenzol]

~snip~

To be clear: my issue is with Onyx Path's consistently questionable practices when it comes to referring to Jewish figures, the Jewish homeland, and Jewish holy sites, not in-universe groups acting in line with their character.

Frankly, the Jesus stuff should simply be cut to remove the Hebrew (since Jesus is not important to Jews except insofar as his worshippers like to murder us) and the line about Solomon should be changed to say that the Guardians like to claim him as their own rather than stating it as fact.

The Haifa section needs to be rewritten, it is whitewashing an actual genocide of the indigenous Jewish population by Christian invaders.

[ArcaneArts]

Someone can sum-up me how authors solve Diamond Orders creation officially in Tome of Pentacle?

I'm not sure how relevant it is now - but when To the Strongest come up, I was doing MtAw fan history take on existing gameline sources. Darshanas, proto-Orders, where all around the world Nameless Orders that looked kinda similar to Global Orders that would come after them.

And there was some event that changed all the Arcadian Mysteries ( Greeks ), Karpani ( Persian ), Manthra Sadhaki ( Indian ) and Weret-Hakau ( Egyptian ) sorcerers Cults become the Diamond Orders we know from gameline lore. In my fan take it was first Atheneum in Library of Alexandria ( for Keepers of the Word ) and first Punic War ( for Adamantine Arrow ) - and there after New Constructions forming Guardians of the Veil forces in Rome, rest of Omphalos cults to form Silver Ladder in Orders race. It all takes from 297 to 218BCE. On start of Second Punic war at 218 BCE we have all the Diamond Orders in Rome we know.

I'm sorry, what is there to solve?

To The Strongest was the beginning of a long gestational period that was the seeds of the Diamond. It wasn't an event that magically and instantly turned the Darshanas and Great Cults of Greece, Persia, Egypt, and India, it was a period of time building on the ideas that started around the time of Alexander the Pretty All Right's death and "finished" with the first convocation of In Alexandria 265 CE. TotP's major contribution is to give an idea of all the little things that went into that period of figuring things out and putting pieces together, including how the Elbaite, Jewish, Chinese, and (to a lesser degree) the Babylonian Great Cults contributed, the initial parcelling out of darshana philosophy to each of the growing Orders, and the politics against Seer cults defining initial boundaries. While the details are nice, none of it needed to solve How the Diamond emerged from To The Strongest, because To The Strongest was pretty bluntly clear about how and why that worked.

[wyrdhamster]

Can someone points timeline events about creation of Orders in Tome of Pentacle?

I'm not Jew, but to me (agnostic interested in myths), greatest problem in MtAw gameline is authors stating contradicting facts about Orders history interpretation. Maybe I'm not aware about some esoteric legends, but in Christianity, Islam and Judaism, King Salomon was commanding demons, for them do his biddings. This does not very Guardians of Veil-like, especially in context of their Diamond Wheel philosophy. It's directly Imperium Mysterium of Silver Ladder dogma. Using Goetic demons ( based on Mind and Spirit ) does not change fact it's VERY hubristic acts in the first place.

[ArcaneArts]

Can someone points timeline events about creation of Orders in Tome of Pentacle?

Putting asides the "Probably not, why not just buy it" answer:

323 BCE: People starting getting ideas.
265 CE: Those ideas are now pretty much formed into a society.

Again, things happen, these ideas come together, but it's not like that relative 500~ years worth of time is made up of major swing points. It's all slow coalescence.

If you're really that determined to see all the little details, buy the book.

[CTPhipps]

There's a lot I'm liking about this book, but the "Global Overview" section is idiotic from top to bottom, I'm sorry to say. You get two paragraphs to talk about a place and Brazil doesn't believe in the Supernal and the US is full of Nazi-mages. WOW!!! Only the similar section in Guildhalls of the Deathless I think is brimmed with the same type of r-wordedness ("Mother Africa is home" is permanently branded into my corpus callosum and not in a good way) in a Chronicles book. None of anything said in these handful of pages is worth considering for any actual Mage game; it's just tepid centrist handwringing for the most part. No section in this part has the breathing room to say anything interesting beyond Eurocentric liberal guilt and bland overcultural stereotypes. I was actually on-board with the first paragraph of the Zajia section until the second explicitly connected each Chinese philosophy to a different Order; that can go to hell for all I'm concerned. Jesus. Nothing in that part adds up to anything meaningful and that's so frustrating for what has been bandied about as the last Awakening 2e book. All any of this part does is limit ideas rather than expand them. Kant would not approve. I do however like the write-up of the Keepers of the Word. They seem like cool cats. I'd join them if I were a mage in the period they were active. Just kidding, I would never be a mage; I would never Awaken. There's a strong wind blowing outside my window right now, or maybe it's a car with problems.

Where do I even begin?

Take an infraction and leave the thread. If you use ableist slurs again, you will be banned. It was not fooling anyone.

[lbeaumanior]

Is it explained on the Uchronia content what happens with Aponoia and how to revert it?

[Satchel]

Is it explained on the Uchronia content what happens with Aponoia and how to revert it?

Aponoia is the first of uchronia and stated to be the same thing as Gold uchronia, i.e. "history has been irrevocably and retroactively changed around this thing due to alterations of the Supernal."

Aponoia means there's no leftover leads to follow with magic, much as ruins of the Time Before provide nonexistent or nonsensical information to Time spells. You're not going to revert the cosmic alphabet soup of an event having a rock dropped into it the way you can trace an archspell with sufficient power.