Tome of the Pentacle on DTRPG

[lbeaumanior]

Feline Friend is definitely the best Merit.

Could you please elaborate?

Aponoia is the first of uchronia and stated to be the same thing as Gold uchronia, i.e. "history has been irrevocably and retroactively changed around this thing due to alterations of the Supernal."

Aponoia means there's no leftover leads to follow with magic, much as ruins of the Time Before provide nonexistent or nonsensical information to Time spells. You're not going to revert the cosmic alphabet soup of an event having a rock dropped into it the way you can trace an archspell with sufficient power.

Wait, since I dont have the book, could you please try to clarify with an example?

If I am understanding this correctly, if Jack awakens, suffers from Aponoia, and suddenly he is no longer married to Jill, will Time spells such as Postcognition when applied to Jack, no longer report any information of him having meals, dates, sex, walks in the park, etc? Only Mind magic applied to his memories will reveal this information, right? Or not even Mind magic will reveal this information?

[KaiserAfini]

Could you please elaborate?





Wait, since I dont have the book, could you please try to clarify with an example?

If I am understanding this correctly, if Jack awakens, suffers from Aponoia, and suddenly he is no longer married to Jill, will Time spells such as Postcognition when applied to Jack, no longer report any information of him having meals, dates, sex, walks in the park, etc? Only Mind magic applied to his memories will reveal this information, right? Or not even Mind magic will reveal this information?

It really depends on how the Time spell was made, but its very possible for the person to retain memories of a timeline that never was. Aponoia is caused when Imperial magic changes things ad aeternum. You can be from a time when dinosaurs have evolved further and always ruled the Earth, creating a more advanced society where they have bioconstructs and psychic abilities. But then an archmage cast a Time spell to make them go extinct and human society to have developed instead. The dinosaurs always ruled the Earth, until they never did. Time magic trying to date your life and history will create a confusing jumble of information, Mind magic will say your memories are consistent and never altered, Prime magic states you are telling what you know is the objective truth and any proofs from this discarded timeline will tell a consistently themed story with inconsistent details.

[Satchel]

Wait, since I dont have the book, could you please try to clarify with an example?

Aponoia has been described in other books. The only new information Tome of the Pentacle introduces is that it is classified in the same hierarchy of history-reading hiccups as mummies being practically immune to Time magic.

If I am understanding this correctly, if Jack awakens, suffers from Aponoia, and suddenly he is no longer married to Jill, will Time spells such as Postcognition when applied to Jack, no longer report any information of him having meals, dates, sex, walks in the park, etc? Only Mind magic applied to his memories will reveal this information, right? Or not even Mind magic will reveal this information?

The only evidence that the world was ever different is in Jack's memories. His history is now and has always been as it was altered to be otherwise. The section introducing new spells for Awakened historians includes one to store memories in objects as well as a new Reach option for Read the Depths to copy a memory from one thinking subject to another.

[Errol216]

Could you please elaborate?

Feline Friend is a Merit that models your relationship with bodega cats. The mechanical benefit is just "the Shadow is easier to access" per extra dot of Merit, but the main appeal is that you have a cat friend.

It's not deep or anything. I just get along with animals.

[ArcaneArts]

You get two paragraphs to talk about a place and Brazil doesn't believe in the Supernal

I wanted to address this briefly-

Issues of cultural portrayal asides (I am not equipped to speak authoritatively on either of these regions as it relates to the real world cultures), both the Amazonia and Svikiro regions take on the Supernal Realms as not existing and instead understanding it by way of the orishas and ancestors is, strictly speaking, technically more correct than the traditional approach of thought about the Supernal Realms.

Princes of the Conquered Land, which covered the Shona Awakened with a distinct separation from the Diamond (in terms of adjoinment, not neccesarily interaction), makes the point that the world was, for them, here, and that invisible otherworldly kingdoms are counter to the way the Shona understood reality-and given the role of the Supernal as source code that is communicated through symbols, that take is technically more accurate than the conventional take of the Paths and the Watchtowers that carve the way for wizards. The Szikiro region basically just forwards the Great Cult's perspective into their participation with the Diamond*-and however realistic or not realistic it is for that perspective to continue on with prominence upon joining the Diamond or how it reflects on modern South African culture, it is a viable metaphysical take to ground a region in.

Amazonia is something I can speak less authoritatively on (I have years of research on the history and mythology of Mesoamerican cultures, not so much for South American cultures, and I obviously can't piggyback off of the authoritative developers, writers, and consultants that Princes had), but technically more accurate take on the Supernal than the invisible kingdom take on the Realms, it's also compounded by the fact that the orisha are legitimate, actual entities in the area, with the book making it clear that the Awakened regularly interact with them, and in fact making them a region wide Mystery.

Now, does that mean that those two bits are exempt from actual cultural representation problems with their real world counterparts? No, and again, I'm not the one to make any commentary on that-but from the perspective of Awakening's fiction, it is useful to show the way the Diamond still internally varies while still maintaining consistency, and the academic/metaphysical value of contrasting technically more accurate takes versus easier to grok versions of the same thing has a lot of playable value, and it's at least a nod towards the way the Diamond is still shaped by Sleeper culture.

*And I should note, at this point, that Dave made it clear they worked very hard with informed and educated references on the subject of the Shona to make sure the culture was presented respectfully and accurately in Princes of the Conquered Land, and that TotP forwarding that is possibly just a safe move due to the lack of resources to do the same for this book, possibly.

[lnodiv]

Uhhhh that still sounds bad unless I am missing something?

That the fictional equivalents of dogmatic* religions serve the interests of a fictional force that represents the power of dogma should not be controversial and isn't particularly bad, in my opinion.

* Meaning:

Dogmatic: inclined to lay down principles as incontrovertibly true.

[ArcaneArts]

In contrast, the book more or less implies that the religions of Christianity and Islam are, on balance, serving the interests of the Father.

I mean...

Ignoring my innate response, there's a catch for any story like these regarding two of the biggest religions with the most incentive to prove themselves as the valid choice for cosmological correctness, in that the main audience aimed at will take any validation of one or the other as real world endorsement, and will likewise take ignoring them as it's own real world endorsement. So they need to be acknowledged somehow, and at the same time ideally locked off to really avoid going into it.

THe big catch to that, of course, is that there are certain kinds of answers that give too much validity to either or neither religion while doing that-for example, having a joint effort of Seer and Pentacle defenses around that portion of the timeline validates them with as a thing that the two agree on, where as having something supernatural and unexplained protecting them provides credence to that particular strain of monotheism additional validity.

Out of all the options for addressing the concern, in a book that was invariably going to have address it somehow, having the bad guys guard them is the best for acknowledging them without giving too much validity, because it leaves room for both "the bad guys are doing this because if the truth about either religions were established, then the truth would inspires everyone to take use out" and "the bad guys are doing this because if people could prove how much of a scam either of them, Paternoster would lose out a whole bunch of power"*, and leaves room for players to go and value/disvalue either of them if they want to by opposing the bad guys.

Also, Chronicles is intended to be a mature game, and with that there is a reasonable expectation that mature people can be honest about the implementation of these religions and their many branches has not always been stellar, without evaluating them as being untrue or damnedable. In particular, it's impossible to suggest having a faction exploring the tyrannical application of religion without addressing how, in some way, that has included Christianity and Islam, even if there is a portion of it that is true, or that good has been done by either, and it would be a bit of a miss to build an antagonist group around the idea of tyranny, a good idea for a game that explores the consequences of power, and leave out the impact of religion in that discussion.

Christianity and Islam are big, powerful organisms of faith and political power in the world, and it's adherents are very well empowered by them. Collectively, they are all tough enough to handle a bit of a knock on the chin, particularly if that knock is intended to extend some good faith and benefit of the doubt with it.

*This is a hyperbolic set of extremes which doesn't exactly engage with how faith works and is otherwise worked with, but whatever.

[Professor Phobos]

Really liked the history chapter; one of the major complaints back when Mage 1e came out was how kind of empty the backstory was in terms of "contingent narrative" and a connection to history. They solved this over time and I feel like they really nailed it with this section.

The "world overview" chapter seems to assume by default waaaay more Mages than my own mental demographics; it could just be the consequence of trying to describe a society with complex internal dynamics in general terms, which always seems to imply larger numbers than the setting requires.

[ArcaneArts]

Really liked the history chapter; one of the major complaints back when Mage 1e came out was how kind of empty the backstory was in terms of "contingent narrative" and a connection to history. They solved this over time and I feel like they really nailed it with this section.

The "world overview" chapter seems to assume by default waaaay more Mages than my own mental demographics; it could just be the consequence of trying to describe a society with complex internal dynamics in general terms, which always seems to imply larger numbers than the setting requires.

If I had to take a guess about what's juggling the numbers, I'd wager it's the mistake I keep making while reading and having to remind myself is not the case- the Orders of the Pentacle are not solely their mages. THe majority of presence in these areas is likely the admixture of Sleepers, Sleepwalkers, and Proximi rather than strictly the Awakened.

Then again, numbers is just generally a very wibbly subject in Chronicles anyways. I stand by the wisdom that the best way to think about numbers is to not do it.

[Isator Levi]

Just looking into it now. I'm liking how even in the early stage it presents a very compelling picture of the complexities of mage history and the evolution of their societies, and the complications introduced by magic and Mystery.

I must admit to getting a kick out of seeing my notion that the time in between the formation of the Mysterium and the rise of L’Hegemonie Secrète was something of a golden age for the Diamond turn out to be in line with canon.

[Isator Levi]

I have a particular fondness for Dave's Soul Cage chronicle, because commenting on the Actual Play of it marked my entry into RPG.Net (which remains a very significant community for me), and because, well, he named a couple of minor characters in the story after my username*.

So I find something particularly nice in seeing the chronicle's major character of Koschiej the Deathless canonized like that. I think the slight modifications to his backstory to fit with the alteration to how the Nameless War and Great Refusal are supposed to have played out rather compelling, and the potential of his continued existence as a plot hook is intriguing.

I think particularly if he's synchronized with the history entailed by Operation Oracle, and the specific role of leading Free Councillors in that disaster.

* And made one of them effectively a pastiche of some of my most frequent stances on the White Wolf Forums at the time, an acknowledgement I still find delightful.

[Dave Brookshaw]

Yeah, so - for the Great Refusal, you have five character "slots".

1) Free Councillor who (briefly) takes charge of organising the new order and then retires. Thanks to the FC book in 1e this is Razi. Existing character, no notes.

2) Pair of Doomed Lovers from the London and Paris Consilia, his Assembly takes up Hegemony's offer, she tells hers, Great Refusal kicks off. Wordcount did not allow them to have character writeups, but I got them in as chapter one's fiction - Manon and Brunel.

3) Silver Ladder Heirarch who creates the Pentacle through sheer political shock and awe. We know he's French. Needs to be able to work with and contrast but have clear differences to Razi. This became Vidocq. (Which, in Soul Cage, was the name of his modern-day successor)

4) Libertine who'd been fighting the Nameless War and accepts the Pentacle grudgingly...

...Why am I making a new character for this, I based an entire Chrinicle around this!

So he's back. Reimagined slightly, but still Kosciej. Same way Cxaxa from this book and Reign of the Exarchs is not *quite* Soul Cage's Cxaxa.
Cxaxa

Sacrificed on the altar of this being mage history overall and not a Great Refusal Dark Era; Whoever in Hegemony had the best idea and worst day at work ever, anti-Pentacle Diamond mages, and viewpoints that aren't within 200 miles of the English Channel. You could get a whole book out of the Great Refusal.

Actually, you could do a while set of Dark Eras about the Age boundary events, one after the other.

[Isator Levi]

Thus far, I do find the book did a good job of threading the needle of making mages (and other supernatural beings) feel present in the history of the world without making it feel as though they were the primary driving actors of it. Especially with an idea that the Sundered Age was a time when you'd see some of these groups actually take the reins of society and occasionally fill the role of long distant historical personages.

I like seeing some of the greater and lesser ways some historical events from the Order books have been worked in (particularly the conflict between the Roman Adamant Sage and his treacherous Tyrant brother). Guardians of the Veil stands out as one of those I only managed to see within the last couple of years, in contrast to the others from more than a decade ago, so the Quiet are still fresh on my mind, and I'd say of all Orders to still retain some vestige of their more mythic origins those are ones for whom it can work the best.

(Free Council is also in that boat, and I liked Razi then enough to also smile a bit at seeing him referenced all over again).

I've actually long wondered about some of the intricacies of how the Corpus might have reconciled the Keepers and Pancryptiates, so I find it very effective to expound on how they attributed that notion of life to Pancryptia, and the Author turning that onto magic instead (which then gets to incorporate the idea of Logos). Indeed, I've often wondered how the unification of the Mysterium could work as both widely recorded historical event and basis for an Ascension (with the usual elements of uchronia), so I finally get it with the idea that the Corpus effectively argues a thesis that became closer to Truth in the process of selling people on it. Kind of a "God did not exist, so it was necessary for me to invent him" taken from an approach that is less concerned with God than the social benefits of a church in worship.

And I'll say now that I like what the start of the following chapter does for making different cultural spheres of the world have their own permutations on the Diamond and its cosmology, as well as practices that may or may not emerge from that. In particular is the way that the Diamond Belt makes the feel of being the oldest heartland of the Orders very visceral, the way the section on Europa reconciles the significance of colonialism (and what First Edition books said that did for the Diamond) with larger social considerations and a deeper sense of setting history, and I really like what is done with the Aquarian Satellites that kind of turns assumptions of an America-centric setting on its head.

Like, I think it does a good job of making that feel like one of the younger places the worldwide Diamond model has existed in to say that it would be where there was an actually fighting Nameless War, and it's fun to say that a particularly pronounced hostility between Silver Ladder and Free Council is something local, atypical, and emerging from a specific recent historical process.

Although good God does Operation Oracle have a tendency to draw some of the most unnuanced critical responses. I can barely fathom how a person arguing in good faith would look at "American mages have historical schisms as a result of an incident following World War II (that was expounded upon at length in Mage Noir)" and render that as "America is full of Nazi mages".

[Michael]

(particularly the conflict between the Roman Adamant Sage and his treacherous Tyrant brother).

For me that was the one call-back that didn't work. It's just a bit too inconsequential for a timeline. I guess it establishes that there was a position of Adamant Sage in Rome?

[Isator Levi]

For me that was the one call-back that didn't work. It's just a bit too inconsequential for a timeline.

I see two possible points of significance for it.

One is how it's associated here with Hannibal crossing the Alps; it might be seen in terms of conflicts of mages trying to influence mortal warfare, particularly in terms of the Diadochi pursuing their goals of driving conflict to keep societies fractured.

The other could be to make a point about how even at this point, worshippers of the Exarchs still exist in the ranks of the proto-Orders, and create points of vulnerability for them.

Actually, that could be considered in terms of a third point; that against the backdrop of a landmark conflict, an Atlantean cabal coming under such an attack (including such personal stakes to drove the point home) is contributing to the foundations of why the Convocation of Alexandria will make the specific point of expelling Tyrannic cabals when the Diamond Orders are formally established, some four hundred years later.

Many points during the Foundation Era seem to be the evolution from the belief in ruling humanity in service to Exarchs merely being a competing point of view within the proto-Orders into the Atlantean Antitype specifically viewing such a thing as incompatible with their larger goals, and indeed proactively hostile to them.

Like, a thing I recall from To The Strongest is that when they were darshanas within Great Cults, their best frame of reference for understanding Mysteries hinting at the Exarchs was that they were the gods of their religions, to the point that some traditions that could be ancestors to Order institutions would have regarded them as figures to venerate. At the very least, what will become the Exarchs are not yet perceived as the enemy, although the typical view of Tyrannoi was apparently an aspiration to usurp them.

I take it that in the transition from Scholastic Age to Foundation, you get the mages who desire to be the governing forces of humanity finding themselves in positions of worshippers of the Exarchs*, and the ones with other interests in the Mysteries and more aspirational goals for humanity increasingly seeing that as not congruent with the gods, who indeed prove hostile to it.

The Diamond Orders might not necessarily define themselves as being at war with the Exarchs, but I'd say Alexandria marks a point where they find it clear that reality is governed by tyrants whose governance they do not recognise, which meant that any who would submit to them had no place at the table.

* I'll maintain the headcanon that Tyrannoi who wished to take the thrones for themselves studied the kinds of Mysteries that lead to iron doors appearing in your Oneiros, and those who came back from that journey were thoroughly disabused of the notion.