Tome of the Pentacle on DTRPG

[Michael]

Actually, that could be considered in terms of a third point; that against the backdrop of a landmark conflict, an Atlantean cabal coming under such an attack (including such personal stakes to drove the point home) is contributing to the foundations of why the Convocation of Alexandria will make the specific point of expelling Tyrannic cabals when the Diamond Orders are formally established, some four hundred years later.

That's a great observation. I mean, I did think the expulsion of the Tyrannoi was a little sudden, and could have been explained a little more; but you're right there is bit of a pattern there.

* I'll maintain the headcanon that Tyrannoi who wished to take the thrones for themselves studied the kinds of Mysteries that lead to iron doors appearing in your Oneiros, and those who came back from that journey were thoroughly disabused of the notion.

That would make a lot of sense.

[Isator Levi]

I think it's interesting to include a section of the world where the mages think souls can't be destroyed, and hence it's okay, even laudable, to harness them towards certain altruistic ends. Both in its own right as a compelling magical practice that constitutes its own argument in the cosmology and as something that could provoke friction for globe-trotting mages. I think it's good to have stuff like that, both to create a dynamic body of information and basis for debate and investigation against the backdrop of the mechanics and a set of ambiguities that help make things feel more mystical.

Also have a fondness for how large bodies of water can still be perilous for the Awakened.

[Second Chances]

To paraphrase Discord, ocean’s haunted.

[CTPhipps]

That the fictional equivalents of dogmatic* religions serve the interests of a fictional force that represents the power of dogma should not be controversial and isn't particularly bad, in my opinion.

* Meaning:

Try not to insult real life religions.

[Professor Phobos]

The ocean stuff does make me wish they'd established a set of rules for "ambient magical environment modifiers" or somesuch to cover the kinds of situational challenges that might affect magic. Harder to find people on the ocean. Certain magics work better at night or during the day. A man walking widdershins shakes off a tracking spell. Stuff like that.

[Isator Levi]

The ocean stuff does make me wish they'd established a set of rules for "ambient magical environment modifiers" or somesuch to cover the kinds of situational challenges that might affect magic. Harder to find people on the ocean. Certain magics work better at night or during the day. A man walking widdershins shakes off a tracking spell. Stuff like that.

I think the day or night one is a straightforward environmental Yantra, the ocean one can function as a Mystery that gets mediated in straightforward manner through the Withstand system, and the last is fairly contrary to some of the key underpinnings of how magic is supposed to work in this setting.

Like, barring the intervention of Mysteries or powers that plausibly present Clash of Wills, a successful spell cast upon a person who cannot dispel means that they're fucked. Some obscure cultural practice should no more innately end a spell then a strong exertion of will should allow a person to resist mind control.

[The Firebrand]

Also have a fondness for how large bodies of water can still be perilous for the Awakened.

I do have to wonder why there are Gulmoths and Acamoths emerging from, or presiding over, the seas and oceans when the vast majority of Awakened reside on land, thus the vast majority of Paradox also happens on land. I know that there's some mysterious lore tidbits here and there for Mother Ocean, but I wouldn't think a Pangaean would have much of anything to do with the Abyss.

The Mariana Trench containing an Abyssal Verge is awesome and horrific, though

[proindrakenzol]

I think the day or night one is a straightforward environmental Yantra, the ocean one can function as a Mystery that gets mediated in straightforward manner through the Withstand system, and the last is fairly contrary to some of the key underpinnings of how magic is supposed to work in this setting.

Like, barring the intervention of Mysteries or powers that plausibly present Clash of Wills, a successful spell cast upon a person who cannot dispel means that they're fucked. Some obscure cultural practice should no more innately end a spell then a strong exertion of will should allow a person to resist mind control.

A strong exertion of will does allow a person to resist mind control. Expending a Willpower can increase a resistance attribute by 2 for a turn, which can cause a spell to temporarily stop working if its potency is no longer greater than Withstand.

But I agree that cultural practices shouldn't end supernal spells.

[Isator Levi]

A strong exertion of will does allow a person to resist mind control. Expending a Willpower can increase a resistance attribute by 2 for a turn, which can cause a spell to temporarily stop working if its potency is no longer greater than Withstand.

It says that can be done if they are aware that a spell is being cast upon them. I find that to be a wording that only allows it to work before it takes effect.

I was phrasing more in terms of some exertion taken to shake a mind control off in the moment it becomes personally offensive.

Besides, even if it was an issue, the mage who increases the Potency just a bit more creates an indestructible cage over a person's mind. There are other systems where some breaking point would allow a roll depicting the struggle that affords even a chance of shaking it off, but Awakened magic is quite binary in that respect. If it's Potent, there's no contest, no struggle, just an individual rendered a blind passenger to whatever command you have instilled. Dissonance might offer a Sleeper some refuge from that, but there are ways to manage that.

[Michael]

Like, barring the intervention of Mysteries...

I thought that was fairly clearly the idea?

[Professor Phobos]

I think the day or night one is a straightforward environmental Yantra, the ocean one can function as a Mystery that gets mediated in straightforward manner through the Withstand system, and the last is fairly contrary to some of the key underpinnings of how magic is supposed to work in this setting.

Like, barring the intervention of Mysteries or powers that plausibly present Clash of Wills, a successful spell cast upon a person who cannot dispel means that they're fucked. Some obscure cultural practice should no more innately end a spell then a strong exertion of will should allow a person to resist mind control.

I dunno, I could see a variety of "mundane" counter-measures tossing a -2 penalty to spells, or boosting Withstand by 1 or 2. Protective amulets, that kind of stuff. The Mystery system often levies restrictions or penalties on magic but there aren't consistent guidelines for how to generate them; as a storyteller, if I want to establish the Weird Forest Outside of Town doesn't permit scrying within it, I'm totally within the bounds of the game to set that up, but I have no real assistance in doing so and theoretically it's a disadvantage to the players expectations of how their magic is supposed to work. I worry about these things sometimes.

[Isator Levi]

I thought that was fairly clearly the idea?

It would seem not.

I dunno, I could see a variety of "mundane" counter-measures tossing a -2 penalty to spells, or boosting Withstand by 1 or 2. Protective amulets, that kind of stuff.

For one thing, it almost certainly shouldn't be penalties, because the way penalties work for the spell factor economy is half of why there's a Withstand system in the first place.

The other half is why the game doesn't go with contested rolls the way most such powers are resisted in the other game lines; because Supernal magic is taking place at a resolution of reality where the idea of somebody physically or mentally struggling against it makes no sense.

Hence why you won't get some kinds of folk charms or odd happenstance that can interfere with it; such things have no interaction with the kinds of fundamental principles Awakened spells realign to create effects.

I think it's rather analogous to the tiers of changing the past that this book presents us with, the contrast between powers within the Fallen World who can change things so fundamentally that they never occurred, but can still be perceived in subjects who are the result of them, and the kinds of alterations in the Supernal that change the progression of history on such a level that there's no trace of their past whatsoever; you can examine a person's timeline and find that the real past is a version that they have no memory of.

Spirits and changelings are the ones whose power arises from a source that can be interfered with by the symbolism of objects in mundane reality.

The Mystery system often levies restrictions or penalties on magic but there aren't consistent guidelines for how to generate them; as a storyteller, if I want to establish the Weird Forest Outside of Town doesn't permit scrying within it, I'm totally within the bounds of the game to set that up, but I have no real assistance in doing so

I think the Mage magic system is not so elaborate that the mechanical implementations of such things are particularly difficult to arrive at. It's ultimately just adjusting some numbers up or down.

I mean, how much assistance is actually necessary to figure out how "doesn't permit scrying" would work? A person tries to cast scrying on a subject within the forest, it fails... that's it.

theoretically it's a disadvantage to the players expectations of how their magic is supposed to work. I worry about these things sometimes.

Certainly the types of Mysteries that cause interference in magic should be used most cautiously and sparingly, lest it feel like "your cool powerset is way to inconvenient, so I'm just going to impose restrictions on it arbitrarily". I think the best recourse there is to make sure the restriction feels evocative of the circumstances in which it takes place, and comes in a form more like creating an obstacle mages might get around with other powers rather than a hard wall.

And probably ultimately carefully kept within small spaces (with the exception of any dramatic tension to drive a plot about the unnerving prospect of them being extended)..

[LostLight]

Well, I understand why, considering the very small amount of wordcount, the writers chose to focus around Mt Carmel and its religious connotations in the Haifa writeup, but I am sorely disappointed that there was no actual discussion of Haifa itself. I mean, I don't think that this writeup actually gives much for those who don't know about the city (which is most of the people who will probably read the book), and it may give a wrong impression of Haifa as being mostly a religious site (which it isn't. Sure, Bahai Gardens and all of that is true and present, but calling the setting "Haifa" is wrong in that regard). Also, guilty pleasure- a totally missed opportunity for Boar memes (Haifa is associated with a lot of Boar jokes, as the city is basically overwhelmed by them for years).

[Michael]

I dunno, I could see a variety of "mundane" counter-measures tossing a -2 penalty to spells, or boosting Withstand by 1 or 2. Protective amulets, that kind of stuff.

I like the idea. I think I'd keep it quite granular though. Have different charms do different things (and have some do nothing).

In fact, I kinda like the idea that a lot of them would just act as sympathy for the Exarchs. So, no change to magic, but suddenly the afflicted mage is appearing in the mystery commands of the local Seer population.

[Isator Levi]

Makes sense. I mean, they're through there in Heaven, one of them is the actual symbol of tyranny through surveillance, but they really ought to need Sleepers to be carrying horseshoes and stuff to know what's going on.

Perhaps while one is at it they can make the spells of the Awakened require three days of meditation and the material components actually do something other than provide a mental focus for visualising imagos, which I presume stop being a thing once we move to "they need to engage with the Fallen World on its own terms" rather than rearranging the light sources that cast shadows on the cave wall.