Addicted to Mystery: What do you want to see in the Fallen World Chronicles?

[Freemind]

Still, the hierarchy doesn't mean much if they are the same.

I mean, when you look at VtR, each of the organizations feel like a different spin. You have the Crone who has blood magic, and then over here you have the Ordo Dracul, who has their coils, and then the Invictus has reduced costs on merits and their Oaths or the Lancea has Theban Sorcery. Even the Carthians have their law thing. All are powerful organizations with their hierarchies, but each group also shapes how live as a vampire. They aren't just a place that teaches disciplines that get activated with slightly different skills, but completely different beasts that each embody what they are supposed to be mechanically.

So while I love that Orders are stepping into the forefront of politics and thus will have a role that is more center on the social side, I would love to see that there is definitive mechanistic variance in how each Order practices so that there is a point to their being different orders beyond fluff.

[wyrdhamster]

I agree on Orders thing, but to the point were they are still "caste-like" specialization. One of my problem with Vampire: Requiem after the Blood and Smoke is that Covenants - having great and fun powers that make them unique - gone to far in they uniquness in setting section. So not remaking Orders as they are, but maybe get real powers for them to be a diffrent beasts.

[Isator Levi]

I mean, when you look at VtR, each of the organizations feel like a different spin.

Vampires can do a lot less than mages.

[Freemind]

I agree on Orders thing, but to the point were they are still "caste-like" specialization. One of my problem with Vampire: Requiem after the Blood and Smoke is that Covenants - having great and fun powers that make them unique - gone to far in they uniquness in setting section. So not remaking Orders as they are, but maybe get real powers for them to be a diffrent beasts.

I agree. I am not asking the orders to change, but merely have a point to existing outside of fluff and rotes.

I should feel like my Adamantine arrows actually are better at war compared to other mages, not just because I spent a ton of XP on combat skills and fighting styles, but because being an Adamantine arrow actually leads to you being better at being a battle mage. I should feel like a Silver Ladder mage really is better at being a leader, not just because I invested in social dots and merits, but because the silver ladder trains you to be one. The free council should actually draw power from the supernal symbolism in the everyday world around them. The Mysterium should actually be the best researchers, and be able to bring to bare their access to their vast storehouse of artifacts and knowledge in a discernible way. The Guardians, well, I actually think they had some pretty good abilities with the Masks and sin eating thing, and the Prelacies made the Seers feel like they actually were servants of the all powerful exarchs. (so I guess 1/3 of the orders were on the right tract, IMO)

I am not saying that a member of the silver ladder shouldnt be able to be good at combat, or an Arrow cant study an artifact. They are all mages, and thus have the power to be able to do anything. But I do feel that if I put the XP into being a combat mage in the silver ladder, that I should still be less effective than an Arrow of the same Path/Arcana who spent the same XP to also be a good warrior. Make the orders matter, otherwise they just seem like petty social clubs.

Vampires can do a lot less than mages.

Yes, I know. I was not trying to compare what each splat could do, but merely give an example of how a tier 3 organization should seem. When you play vampire, each covenant feels different, not just in story but also in how they play. I expect the Ordo Dracul to be a wacky vampire scientist because his special merits, the Coils, actually give mechanical means to be so. Other splats also have this: Changeling Courts, Hunter Conspiracies,Werewolf Tribes, etc.all feel mechanically different to a certain extent, with their Contracts/Endowments/Gifts all defining the Court/Conspiracy/Tribe as unique. Other organizations can pull of similar things (A Rahu will be a warrior no matter their tribe) but their effectiveness varies based of what their Organization excels at.

My point was that mages of different orders should be different beyond one or two small merits and a lot of fluff. I am not saying change the orders purpose, or give new powers outside of the Supernal (Supernal magic is, as you pointed out, very versatile). I am merely asking that their actually is some true mechanical variance between the orders that makes them actually play like they are described in the Order books.

[lunavoco]

I've got questions and I have read the whole list up to here, but I can't remember if Dave's already answered them in the 69 previous pages. Is there a good way to consolidate his answers and make them public? I can copy and paste into Word and format appropriately, but if I'm going through the trouble of cataloging it I'd like to share it with others too. Ideas?

Edit 1: Ok, this thread is compiled. Formatting now. Next I'll check RPG.net and Reddit's AMA.

[Freemind]

Start a new forum article called "FWC:What we know so far" or something like that, and put the compiled stuff there.

[Thorbes]

There are some bits on RPG.net too, so getting it all together is gonna take some time and effort.

[That Other Guy]

There are some bits on RPG.net too, so getting it all together is gonna take some time and effort.

Almost as if it's some sort of... mystery

[shkspr1048]

It is - it's the Prime 4 Attainment, and a "not a spell" extended action.

Excellent, but the question remains, will it be possible for Imbued Items to be more "sleeper friendly"?

[phil]

I agree. I am not asking the orders to change, but merely have a point to existing outside of fluff and rotes.

I should feel like my Adamantine arrows actually are better at war compared to other mages, not just because I spent a ton of XP on combat skills and fighting styles, but because being an Adamantine arrow actually leads to you being better at being a battle mage. I should feel like a Silver Ladder mage really is better at being a leader, not just because I invested in social dots and merits, but because the silver ladder trains you to be one. The free council should actually draw power from the supernal symbolism in the everyday world around them. The Mysterium should actually be the best researchers, and be able to bring to bare their access to their vast storehouse of artifacts and knowledge in a discernible way. The Guardians, well, I actually think they had some pretty good abilities with the Masks and sin eating thing, and the Prelacies made the Seers feel like they actually were servants of the all powerful exarchs. (so I guess 1/3 of the orders were on the right tract, IMO)

I am not saying that a member of the silver ladder shouldnt be able to be good at combat, or an Arrow cant study an artifact. They are all mages, and thus have the power to be able to do anything. But I do feel that if I put the XP into being a combat mage in the silver ladder, that I should still be less effective than an Arrow of the same Path/Arcana who spent the same XP to also be a good warrior. Make the orders matter, otherwise they just seem like petty social clubs.



Yes, I know. I was not trying to compare what each splat could do, but merely give an example of how a tier 3 organization should seem. When you play vampire, each covenant feels different, not just in story but also in how they play. I expect the Ordo Dracul to be a wacky vampire scientist because his special merits, the Coils, actually give mechanical means to be so. Other splats also have this: Changeling Courts, Hunter Conspiracies,Werewolf Tribes, etc.all feel mechanically different to a certain extent, with their Contracts/Endowments/Gifts all defining the Court/Conspiracy/Tribe as unique. Other organizations can pull of similar things (A Rahu will be a warrior no matter their tribe) but their effectiveness varies based of what their Organization excels at.

My point was that mages of different orders should be different beyond one or two small merits and a lot of fluff. I am not saying change the orders purpose, or give new powers outside of the Supernal (Supernal magic is, as you pointed out, very versatile). I am merely asking that their actually is some true mechanical variance between the orders that makes them actually play like they are described in the Order books.

Overall, there is no individual thing about the Orders that I _dislike_. Rather, I think the nagging discontent tugging at my OCD is a result of how those bits have been put together.

I agree, the Orders lack the feeling of distinction that comes easily to VtR's covenants. (At least, pre-Blood & Smoke, which I know little about.) But I disagree that this is due to VtR's social-splat 'insider powers' gambit. (In fact, I'd rather divorce the covenant status requirement from learning the various sorceries. But, that's another topic.) Instead, I think it's because the Orders are somewhat schizophrenic.

Right out of the box (or book as it were), a reader can easily identify how the covenants differ philosophically. Moreover, those simplistically delineated approaches to (un)life suggest professions and archetypes, rather than straight-jacket.

Contrast with the Orders. The diamond orders in particular seem like they were initially intended to be more akin to four departments/trade schools within the larger 'Pentacle', with the FC being halfway in the Pentacle and halfway their own distinct thing. Yes, they had ideologies, but they were more like the slogan or mottos of an alma mater moreso than conflicting credos. In this context, the whole 'Atlantean caste'/rote specialties things make sense. (Not the order restrictions on rotes themselves, though, imo.)

But, then the Orders were evolved via their books into distinct philosophical entities, which were cool in their own right - but basically "sent-to-background" the 'character class' aspect in place of more rigorous ideologies. Now, their core mechanical aspects felt more arbitrary and less differentiating; and holding on to Atlantean caste origins based on 'shared secret histories' seemed more worthy of foot notes. (Also, FC/Mysterium rote specialties FTW.)

Then there's the whole global-local thing; the orders are described and written as global operations. But this isn't reflected (as well) in their structures and activities and from the setting level. Like, why would Atlantean librarians be the only ones aware of magic being alive?

I feel the game 'distinction' issues would be better served by definitively cleaving towards on direction or the other. Are they caste/suborders specializing in providing/teaching a role/trade? Cool. Leave the fine-grained ideologies to local factions or legacies.

I think the real disconnect is that the books insinuate that Order choice influences style / how mages do magic. ("Traditional" vs. "Libertine & New-Fangled", etc.) But, really - those are up to personal aesthetics/cultural/educational background, legacies (and to a lesser extent, paths) less so than Order choice.

Are they global entities or groups loosely-affiliated-by-affinities? If they're global, how is this network maintained? Also, if order is such a big influence on style and ideology, then this should probably supercede - or at least drastically mitigate the sleeper-cultural divides (except in egregious, mutually exclusive cases).

Another change that I think would be beneficial would be better distinction b/t cabal and order. I'm not fully sold on this, but considering how much orders kind of have to do, it may make sense that orders subsume certain aspects of cabals: Taking care of and growing an athenaeum, cryptopoly, etc. takes a lot of effort/manpower, and is kind of contrary to cabal life. If these resources "belong" to the local orders, then why would responsibility for cultivating them be spread across different cabals, most of which probably aren't homogenous? Does that Libertine in the cabal whose sanctum is the Athenaeum get full access? Etc.

On the other hand, cabals would be more like coteries. Some might come together due to stylistic interests, depending on how prominent a role order plays in magical style. Others are probably just neighbors or colleagues.

Or something like that. I'm sure better minds than mine have clearer visions, though.

So, instead, I'm going to offer up a far-out alternative. I feel like the term 'order' brings to mind Victorian era occult cliques, which were not necessarily mutually exclusive - but instead had different secrets/teachings/methods. For example: JD the PC is a Master Mason. However, they're also a Journeyman of Belladona's Fourth Circle (a splinter sect of the Golden Dawn). Meanwhile, they typically attend the Theosophical Society's weekly reading and discussion group. Finally, they've recently gotten in touch with a mentor claiming to have teachings which would iniitate them into the Clandestine Order of the Sacred Skald.

In this scenario, Orders have a bit more overlap, styles are more eclectic. Sure, dedication and understanding/undertaking will be needed to ascend into the upper eschelons/teachings of an order - but overall belonging is only as mutually exclusive as the underlying philosophies.

Ergo, a mage isn't a member of either the FC OR the Mysterium, etc. Instead, they may actively participate in the discourse of the local Assembly, a docent of the local mysterium university and a junior mentor of the silver ladder. (Or something like that.)

Anyway, sorry for the rambling. Back to work.

[lunavoco]

I finished the consolidation and formatting. I'll start culling the RPGNet stuff soon. I need a break first. I read the two AMA's today and I am reminded of how much I hate Reddit's GUI.

This consolidates all Dave B posts from this thread through this point.

http://lunavoco.com/RPGs/MtFWCNotes.docx

My player's response to hearing of the Fallen World Chronicle for the first time just now:

http://i.imgur.com/E3VG3Ps.gif

[Freemind]

...

Contrast with the Orders. The diamond orders in particular seem like they were initially intended to be more akin to four departments/trade schools within the larger 'Pentacle', with the FC being halfway in the Pentacle and halfway their own distinct thing. Yes, they had ideologies, but they were more like the slogan or mottos of an alma mater moreso than conflicting credos. In this context, the whole 'Atlantean caste'/rote specialties things make sense. (Not the order restrictions on rotes themselves, though, imo.)

But, then the Orders were evolved via their books into distinct philosophical entities, which were cool in their own right - but basically "sent-to-background" the 'character class' aspect in place of more rigorous ideologies. Now, their core mechanical aspects felt more arbitrary and less differentiating; and holding on to Atlantean caste origins based on 'shared secret histories' seemed more worthy of foot notes. (Also, FC/Mysterium rote specialties FTW.)

...

I feel the game 'distinction' issues would be better served by definitively cleaving towards on direction or the other. Are they caste/suborders specializing in providing/teaching a role/trade? Cool. Leave the fine-grained ideologies to local factions or legacies.
.

I don't see this as disjointed. Lets take your example: The Pentacle is a University, where each order is a different School (the free council is liberal arts, the silver ladder is the school of diplomacy....whatever). Like you pointed out, in the corebook, the extent of detail that was given really just makes it seem like a university appears on the outside: A bunch of schools with specific training purposes that all fall under an umbrella. But here is the thing. In real life universities, each school has a completely different culture and idealogy of how to approach education and the world as a whole. Heck, even in a liberal arts college that lacks seperate schools, you can see a difference in the mentalities of departments. Have you ever noticed that certain majors or school groups seem to always get stereotypes? That the professors usually seem to fit stereotypes? This is because each school/major draws particular type of people, whose studies will give them very different views of the world. Ask a Woman Studies professor and an Economics professor about the issue of Fair Pay, and you will get different answers based on wildly different world views. Engineering students are in general different than English majors, who are different than enviromental policy majors.

Outside of academia, specific trades have unique philosophies attached. Doctors have a very different culture, and their view of how a hospital should be run than the lawyers and administrators*. This is because that the training to shape you into a specific role always alters your view of all things your field touches, and even outside of it. This is why in a hospital, even though the purpose of a hospital is theoretically to be a central location to provide care for people, you can get wildly different views of how that is best accomplished (heck, even the hospitals purpose gets called into question some times...). Even if you ask a nurse and a doctor, who both are directly responsible for patient care, the culture of their training and the philosophy of their practice guides their answer.

Now imagine you have societies that are thousands of years old that are dealing with something that is far more complex and mysterious than the human body. Even if the Orders originally started as just jobs (Beuracrat, Warrior, Spy, Researcher...Rebel?) after thousands of years you would expect their to be unique views of how the world is through the lens of those professions. Think about how the Freemasons, which 600 years ago were literally just a group of stonemasons, evolved from an accredidation guild to the heavily ritualized organization we see today. Now take something that has existed in some form since before Christ (or not, depending on what an Archmage decides history will be this week), throw in that their occult stuff actually gets results, and imagine how heavy the philosophy would be for each Order. In these groups, Symbolism actually has power, so the Peerless Valiant Warrior isn't just an idea, it is an Ideal that can be called down and reinforced by higher powers. Even the Free council, which existed formally for only 100 years or so, acts as an umbrella organization for groups lasting many times that. Though the Orders may change overtime (like the Arrows after WW2) they still would have starkly different philosophies. They are all united by the fact that they oppose the Exarchs and Abyss, believe in some form of Awakened City in the past. The how to best meet those objectives is where they are divided, though they recognize that even if the others' philosophies are wierd as hell, those Orders are useful and better at somethings.

And with these different philosophies and purposes, we come back to the fact that the Orders should actually do things differntly. If you spend over 2000 years researching how to use magic in war, or how to be super spies, such that you have developed an entire culture around it...Well, you better be the best there is, and actually have a way to do so.

TL;DNR Version: The classes and the philosophies are not distinct, but are to be expected. If you spend thousands of year developing a culture around your role/profession in society, that culture will develop into something uniquely different than that of a culture that revolves around a different role/profession. And, with thousands of years of reasearch and study and philosophy on how to be the Supernal Symbol of your original Role in the Awakened City...there better be something that actually makes you like that Symbol when you join said Order.

*If you can't tell from my frequent use of doctors in my examples, I am in the medical field

[Strill]

Beuracrat, Warrior, Spy, Researcher...Rebel?

The Free Council has been around for about 100 years and is a conglomeration of many smaller 3rd party orders which have their own histories.

[Freemind]

My group had an interesting idea when discussing how to actually make Orders unique. In addition to the "Order Status" merit you keep track of political clout, there would also be an "Order Affinity (whatever order)" merit, which gauged the level of dedication you had to the Orders Teachings. It would be capped at "Order Status" +1-2 dots (we couldn't decide), to reflect that the greatest secrets of an order would be hidden from those who didn't have at least a modicum of good standing, while also making it so that you didn't have to be the regional head of the order to be fully invested in learning its skills. The merit would start at 1 dot, maxing out at 5 (except maybe for Exemplar Archmages of that Order). Each dot would carry a bonus or unique merit/ability, or maybe a boost to certain existing merits. You could never have a total of more than 5 of any Order Affinity, with going any higher requiring you to give up dots in one affinity or the other. So while a high level Arrow with Order Affinity(Adamantine Arrow) 4 who was kicked out could still use all his training, he would not be able to go above the Order Affinity of 1 in any other Order (we did this so as to story wise reflect that each order shapes your thinking, and if you hold on to your old order, you can't really move up in the new one. Mechanically, balance).

So a Silver Ladder mage may gain may have the first dot be "Cryptology" which allows the Silver Ladder mage to utilize the orders influence to gain +1 Status in a particular organization for a scene, and an additional +1 at dots three and 5 of affinity (so +3 at level 5 affinity). To activate this, the mage must spend one mana or offer up another resource, to reflect the favor being paid to whoever in the Order pulled the strings, and would not be able to boost there status in organizations that weren't under the Silver Ladders influence. The next dot would give another ability, such as allowing the Silver Ladder to use "Lex Magica" to their adavantage, reflected in a +2 for all persuasion attempts based on compelling other Orders based on the laws (Obviously not effective on Scelesti or Seers, and maybe not always on FC per storyteller discretion). Each additional dot would give new abilities or skills, each reflecting the perks of the order and the training in becoming a member. So, an Arrow may start at dot 1 as gaining access to Oaths (with the maximum value of an Oath=Order Affinity), offset paradox in combat situations at dot 2 (-1 paradox at dot 2, -2 at dot 4 only in combat) by using the symbols in the conflict to reinforce their imago, learn how to channel spells into physical attacks and weapons at dot 3, etc. A mysterium mage may gain basic access to the local atheneum at 1 dot (Atheneum dots=Order Affinity), at 2 dots be able to cast unveiling and knowing spells with +2 potency (+4 at 4 dots), be able to "take out" artifacts from the atheneum at dot 3 for the cost of favors/mana/etc., and so on.

None of these would drastically change the magic system, but it would make both the orders purposes clerer and make their reason for guarding their trade secrets so important. It also means that those who get to high Order Affinities would become reflections of what their orders are supposed to be. Obviously, the above are not exactly balanced or exactly what we are going with, but I feel that it would be a simple thing to implement (which we might do anyway).

[Freemind]

The Free Council has been around for about 100 years and is a conglomeration of many smaller 3rd party orders which have their own histories.

True, but the 3rd party orders were Nameless orders who had refused to be a part of the Awakened City (or at least the orders that claimed authority from their descent from said city). Hence, they were those who, according to myth, had refused to join the Awakened City or its descendents, and practice their own forms of magic/cultures. Hence rebel. Plus, if you notice, I actually said in that same paragraph:

Even the Free council, which existed formally for only 100 years or so, acts as an umbrella organization for groups lasting many times that.