Addicted to Mystery: What do you want to see in the Fallen World Chronicles?

[Octavo]

On a fun note, our way of dealing with a failed attempt at the Threshold is a solemn burning of the character sheet, after which no one can speak of that character. Extinction from even the metagame makes my players hesitant enough that they treat the threshold seeking as pretty significant and awe inspiring.

I love this idea, and I think I'll incorporate it into future games.

[Dataweaver]

Interesting. I never thought of it as a new/altered template, but that does make a lot of sense. My players have always made it their goal, and I had been using it as the midpoint towards ascension even before IM. After IM came out, it led to it being a major stepping stone in my games, such that it became the norm for my PCs. I forgot in story that it was a rarity. Especially since the Arcane XP is actually more rewarded via Archmastery and the threshold seeking than by using it to get to gnosis 10.

It was explicitly described as a new template in Imperial Mysteries. It would be nice if FWC would emphasize this a bit more, possibly by including some verbage about why a Master might deliberately choose not to become an Archmaster that doesn’t boil down to “he’s too chicken to try”. Something like “there were no Archmasters in Atlantis; the first Archmasters were the Exarchs, which ought to tell you all you need to know anout the incredible arrogance inherent in forging a Golden Road: it’s what broke reality in the first place; and every mage who completes a Threshold Seeking breaks reality a bit more.”

Personally, I’m hoping that some sort of use for Arcane Experience will be provided for regular mages besides “buying up Gnosis” — preferably including some sort of “Impulse Buy”^*; but even just the ability to spend it on Arcana and Praxes^† would be an improvement: something to at least stave off, and hopefully eliminate, the eventual case of “great; I’ve got all thIs Arcana Experience, and nothing I can do with it.”

* “Impulse Buy” is a term I’m borrowing from GURPS, where it’s used to mean the expenditure of character points for a significant but temporary benefit rather than improving your character’s capabilities. A hunter’s ability to spend a point of Practical Experience to fully restore his Willpower is an example of an Impulse Buy. So is an Archmaster’s use of Arcane Experience to fuel Imperial Practices and Imperial Spell Factors.

† I’m referring to the “rote-like” thing that Dave has mentioned that’s not as potent as an actual Rote — although, come to think of it, I could see formulating Rotes as an Arcane XP sink for Masters, somewhere between a personal upgrade and an Impulse Buy (because it’s teachable).

[Epimetheus]

That doesn't make sense as Archmasters have been explicitly responsible for "Altantean" artifacts.

[MugaSofer]

(What's wrong with Professional Training?)

It's amazingly overpowered. Not in the game breaking sense, but in the "I'm amazed this slipped through" sense.

You see, the first dot of this Merit grants two dots in another Merit.

Now this? This is foremost on our minds. In outline at least, I think Fallen World Chronicle is much better organized than the current edition's corebook. I can confidently say that High Speech, Temporal Sympathy, and other things won't be sidebars.

*Excellent.*

Dead wrong, unless you know of a subtranscendant Contract that lets you pull off casual multipresence or count effective suicide of one's mortal half and a total breakdown of one's sense of reality as meaningfully different enough that "spirits don't count" doesn't apply.

Well, players can become True Fae, and True Fae are playable. (You sound like you're forgetting Equinox Road, but I think that's what the second half of your sentence is dismissing as still "dead wrong"?) So technically it's completely true.

But in all fairness, I don't think I have ever heard of someone combining these facts and allowing PC(s) to become True Fae and keep playing 'in a Tier 4 game. It's possible, and it uses only the RAW (barely; you're not supposed to retain Clarity 0 PCs.) But it's not really in the same category as Archmasters.

On the other hand, I kind of want to run that game now.

There are a number of game systems that use the same core rules for all their worlds, and yet they do not balance the different games based off them (Look at the Fate). I recognize that you are pointing out the XP costs are the same, but that is because it represents the rate of progression you would expect within a singular gameline. Sure, you could make the costs different for each line to balance the power gained by, say, a new gift or arcana, but then that means within their own games (if no PC crossover is occurring) mages now feel that it takes them forever to get better with magic. The XP costs are the way they are so in their own gamelines, the characters feel like they are making progress and becoming the enlightened mages or juggernaut werewolves, and the players don't feel like they are being gyped. Slowing that in 1 gameline so that other game lines that could be included as PCs, but are not required to be, seems unfair to that gameline.

Right, but remember, every gameline is "crossing over" with the core rules. If something is overpowered, it needs to be "slowed to balance" with the core "mortal" options - which, if they even have an equivalent ability, means it should be balanced with other splats as well. That's why we have a nWoD, after all - to provide a core system for crossover play, along with a toolbox you can pick and choose from that (ideally) all work with that core and each other.

Spirits are not PCs, so they aren't a fair comparison. They are specifically NPCs used as enemies or powerful figures within their domains that players are supposed to respect (not that mages do...). Plus, they do have the bans, which offer a significant weakness to them.

Well, I mentioned them as potential allies for a high-level non-archmaster PC; they're antagonists/equals for archmasters.

And that mortal, with all that XP? One spell can be cast such that he was never born (literally, time was altered such that his mom never met his father), thus never able to make any deals. Plus, he still has to trade favors, and who knows what will be asked of him in return.

Yes, but that will require time and effort - a lengthy quest to identify and acquire the Quintessence. And that's only *after* the Threshold Seeking.

Both of these are IC adventures and activities yielding rewards, with the ST's permission. Our high-level Mortal's equivalent would be seeking out Tier 4 allies (instead of the Threshold Seeking) and trading favours with them (instead of the Quintessence.)

The Mortal is *almost* as capable of protecting themself from, and striking against, the Archmaster. Given the same amount of preparation.

This is why I have problems with the issues of balancing mages: They were designed in both story and gameplay to be ridiculously powerful. Within their gameline, excepting maybe the mind Arcana, they are pretty well balanced and work great thematically. Yes, in crossovers, a prepared mage is the most powerful being across gamelines, but even other gamelines recognize that in their stories, as most portray awakened mages as things you shouldn't poke around.

So shouldn't they cost more XP than less important and powerful powers like Disciplines and Gifts?

Generously, pattern scouring made sense in-universe but didn't work as a game mechanic because players don't feel pain; less generously it broke the mana economy entirely.
Also, personally, I want pattern restoration to just not be a thing, what the hell even was that.
[...]
The duel arcane. Could be cool. Could be interesting. Mechanically is about as fun as consulting a lookup table. Duels are tricky, of course, as by nature they're closed, fair environments, which are anathema to roleplay (see also: blank white rooms). I wouldn't cry if it went away, but it'd be nice if it got a better treatment too.
[...]
My big thing is just economy and clarity of words/mechanics. Mage has an awful lot of bloat right there in the core book, with lots of things scattered, repeated, shunted into sidebars when they should be in the main text (high speech chanting is a huge bonus, but it only merits a sidebar?) and a lot of ideas thrown out without ever getting any backup.

Wow, these are all really excellent points. Although isn't Pattern Scouring supposed to fill in for "pain" with Resistant Damage, which PCs avoid because damage bad?

I like the idea of a "duel arcane", but helpfully abstracting the Arcana into identical, bland mechanics takes away the interesting side. Just put 'em in a specially Warded circle or something and be done with it.

[Dave Brookshaw]

It's amazingly overpowered. Not in the game breaking sense, but in the "I'm amazed this slipped through" sense.

You're assuming it's not entirely deliberate!

Professional Training is there to encourage players to give characters proper backstories. By, yes, giving them more Merit dots.

[Freemind]

Right, but remember, every gameline is "crossing over" with the core rules. If something is overpowered, it needs to be "slowed to balance" with the core "mortal" options - which, if they even have an equivalent ability, means it should be balanced with other splats as well. That's why we have a nWoD, after all - to provide a core system for crossover play, along with a toolbox you can pick and choose from that (ideally) all work with that core and each other.

To quote Dave "game balance is within a game, not between different games - the author rewriting the Spirit Arcanum is under instruction to make it an attractive choice compared to the other nine Arcana. How it compares to the spirit powers of other splats, from Uratha to Immortals, is completely irrelevant. I know for a fact Idigam's lists include powers for starting level Werewolves that are very difficult for mages to reproduce. But mages can casually do things Uratha can't, too.

That's how we work - any given game's powers are written from the approach of "how powerful should this be for this game?" For Awakening (and this thread is still about Awakening, right?), our aim is to make every Arcanum scream "buy a dot in me!" to players, and have readers think "a Master of this is terrifying." Spirit is no exception."
Which was all my point was from the beginning.

It was explicitly described as a new template in Imperial Mysteries. It would be nice if FWC would emphasize this a bit more, possibly by including some verbage about why a Master might deliberately choose not to become an Archmaster that doesn’t boil down to “he’s too chicken to try”. Something like “there were no Archmasters in Atlantis; the first Archmasters were the Exarchs, which ought to tell you all you need to know anout the incredible arrogance inherent in forging a Golden Road: it’s what broke reality in the first place; and every mage who completes a Threshold Seeking breaks reality a bit more.”

Personally, I’m hoping that some sort of use for Arcane Experience will be provided for regular mages besides “buying up Gnosis” — preferably including some sort of “Impulse Buy”^*; but even just the ability to spend it on Arcana and Praxes^† would be an improvement: something to at least stave off, and hopefully eliminate, the eventual case of “great; I’ve got all thIs Arcana Experience, and nothing I can do with it.”

* “Impulse Buy” is a term I’m borrowing from GURPS, where it’s used to mean the expenditure of character points for a significant but temporary benefit rather than improving your character’s capabilities. A hunter’s ability to spend a point of Practical Experience to fully restore his Willpower is an example of an Impulse Buy. So is an Archmaster’s use of Arcane Experience to fuel Imperial Practices and Imperial Spell Factors.

† I’m referring to the “rote-like” thing that Dave has mentioned that’s not as potent as an actual Rote — although, come to think of it, I could see formulating Rotes as an Arcane XP sink for Masters, somewhere between a personal upgrade and an Impulse Buy (because it’s teachable).

Yeah, I went back to refresh on IM, and realized I completely missed that. It seemed such a natural transition that I forgot that it was a specific new template (Like how in Scion, the transition from Hero to Demigod counts as a template change but follows a natural progression of that game line). That said, I actually completely agree with the idea that the path of an Archmaster, as a new template, should be more enforced as such. Like I said, my players always viewed it as "well, that is the next step, right?". I don't know if the "They weren't in Atlantis and broke everything" is the right path (since most of the mythos point to them existing even then), but it definitely should be a harder achievement. Another thing could be giving other options that are different yet comparable, and have other means to eventually ascend. The back of IM suggests other means of Ascension beyond Imperium, but most are still in the context being an Archmage (Excepting the Wisdom, Supernal Works, and Legacy ones, if I recall).

I was actually going to write that what I want to see is a more clear system for Arcane XP, as you stated. Even a better system to define the rewarding of it, since I always found myself tottering between being to liberal with my awards or to stringent, especially when I had players who knew the game and other lines,. This arose as there was difficulty in getting them to really explore the mysteries (since out of character they already knew it). I would actually work to create new mysteries to explore, but even then it was tricky. And having more uses for it means that I wouldn't have all my players pursuing Archmastery, since it is one of the few things in the current game outside of buying Gnosis (and rarely Arcana) that rewards gaining Arcane XP. So yeah, definitely would like to see a new system around the Arcane XP, and like you said, it would be interesting if it went to Praxes.

[wyrdhamster]

Right, but remember, every gameline is "crossing over" with the core rules. If something is overpowered, it needs to be "slowed to balance" with the core "mortal" options - which, if they even have an equivalent ability, means it should be balanced with other splats as well. That's why we have a nWoD, after all - to provide a core system for crossover play, along with a toolbox you can pick and choose from that (ideally) all work with that core and each other.

I agree with this - I understand that Mage line should be awesome on it's own, and it's first and foremost goal of Fallen World Chronicles. But if we still use the same Storytelling System in constant universe that assume at least in background crossovers - like there are vampires and werewolves and mages, even if only players run mages - then imbalance issues should be taken in to account. It would just make very good product in to great new (new) World of Darkness. One of appeal of 2004 run was that games were at least try to be not much imbalanced between themselves and crossovers were rather doable.

All talking with "it should be Storyteller fiat" is a bit hogwash - of course it in the end will be ST's problem, as is everything in RPG. But great products are better from good ones is because they are more polished and easier for Game Masters to run smoother games - imbalance issues between nWoD gamelines are one of this kind things. When I buy a product, I want as less things to patch with it as possible. I can make 1000 house rules to run my chronicle, but great product shouldn't need them if it wants to be great one.

It's tough subject for devs, I know, but it was one of little things that win over many players from cWoD before. And shouldn't be glossed over with "we run only awesome singular lines". World of Darkness is "universe", like Marvel and DC, and it should have it's own standards.

So shouldn't they cost more XP than less important and powerful powers like Disciplines and Gifts?

I run half year now game with Ruling Arcana cost of 3 XP and Common as 4 XP per dot from Stop Gap rules - and I think they are too low. Mages should be studing harder, even just because they Arcana are so versatile. And no, I'm not running other templates with this group. When, even in pulpish game, PCs are easily becoming second Adepts in 6 months of gameplay and 3 months of in-character time - there is something to do with that.

I like the idea of a "duel arcane", but helpfully abstracting the Arcana into identical, bland mechanics takes away the interesting side. Just put 'em in a specially Warded circle or something and be done with it.

Agreed - Duel Arcane should be made with normal magic, only maybe in resistant space, or hiding realm. Magical dueling should be about dueling with spells.

I was actually going to write that what I want to see is a more clear system for Arcane XP, as you stated. Even a better system to define the rewarding of it, since I always found myself tottering between being to liberal with my awards or to stringent, especially when I had players who knew the game and other lines,. This arose as there was difficulty in getting them to really explore the mysteries (since out of character they already knew it). I would actually work to create new mysteries to explore, but even then it was tricky. And having more uses for it means that I wouldn't have all my players pursuing Archmastery, since it is one of the few things in the current game outside of buying Gnosis (and rarely Arcana) that rewards gaining Arcane XP. So yeah, definitely would like to see a new system around the Arcane XP, and like you said, it would be interesting if it went to Praxes.

Obsessions System is great for this kind of stuff, but you must make used to it, like with Aspiration one. It's something you get in play more and more often.

[Freemind]

Obsessions System is great for this kind of stuff, but you must make used to it, like with Aspiration one. It's something you get in play more and more often.

Yeah, I have been having trouble with using GMC for mage specific stuff, like Arcane XP, even with the stop gaps. I hope it ends up being something as straightforward as the new beat system, just more specific to mage.

[Kazorh]

Right, but remember, every gameline is "crossing over" with the core rules. If something is overpowered, it needs to be "slowed to balance" with the core "mortal" options - which, if they even have an equivalent ability, means it should be balanced with other splats as well.

Not really. An equivalent XP werewolf is going to kick a mortal's ass. They're not meant to be balanced.

So shouldn't they cost more XP than less important and powerful powers like Disciplines and Gifts?

I think "We would have made them cost less except that would have butthurt Vampire players" is not a very good argument when explaining the XP cost of Arcana dots.

To quote Dave "game balance is within a game, not between different games - the author rewriting the Spirit Arcanum is under instruction to make it an attractive choice compared to the other nine Arcana. How it compares to the spirit powers of other splats, from Uratha to Immortals, is completely irrelevant."

In the same vein, the number one priority when you decide on the cost for Arcana is the internal balance of Mage and what Mage players are going to do with their XP, not what werewolves do with theirs.

[Jesuncolo]

Duel Arcane shouldn't be a spell...

[Dave Brookshaw]

Actually, there's something you can all test for me. I'll update the StopGap thread with it, but our current thinking is that Experiences are too chunky for a Ruling/Common/Inferior split.

So rather than change the costs of them, we're thinking of having all Arcana cost 4 Experiences per dot BUT if you're buying below your Path limits (5 for Ruling, 4 for Common, 3 for Inferior) you can spend Arcane Experiences on them as well as regular XP.

We might raise the cost to 5XP for exceeding the Path limits, tinker with the Path limits (lowering them - max 2 for Inferior and 3 for Common?), but the basic principle is this; rather than focus mages on their Paths by making their Ruling Arcana cheaper, we'll use the way Awakening has two XP tracks.

[crabbadon]

Wow, these are all really excellent points. Although isn't Pattern Scouring supposed to fill in for "pain" with Resistant Damage, which PCs avoid because damage bad?

I mean yeah, supposed to being the operative word. It's just in no way a sufficient disincentive to not just patten scour like all the time, especially because you can scour attribute dots instead, and the reward is /really good/. Combined with a *relatively* low amount of mana sinks, it creates a dissonance between the fiction (mana is rare) and the mechanics (you can literally just pull it directly out of your Pattern every single day, and no mage is under active physical threat 365 days a year). I mean YMMV, but it's not, I think, an uncommon view.

[MugaSofer]

Not really. An equivalent XP werewolf is going to kick a mortal's ass. They're not meant to be balanced.

Of course, sorry. (Well, more or less - a well-prepared mortal hunter can do quite well, but not in unarmed combat.)

The Major Template isn't bought with XP, so of course a same-XP character with it is going to be more powerful.

I meant that a(n equivalent XP) werewolf who bought Gifts and Fetishes and other werewolf-specific things should not *automatically* destroy a werewolf who bought Merits and Skills and Attributes. It should depend on their areas of focus, just like everything else.

(They shouldn't be automatically destroyed by anyone who focused on stuff available to mortals - as punishment for buying overpriced Gifts - either. It's a question of balancing [heh] the two.)

I think "We would have made them cost less except that would have butthurt Vampire players" is not a very good argument when explaining the XP cost of Arcana dots.
[...]
In the same vein, the number one priority when you decide on the cost for Arcana is the internal balance of Mage and what Mage players are going to do with their XP, not what werewolves do with theirs.

Absolutely not. If Arcana are too cheap, it means they're too cheap *within that game* - you'll see players either buying them in favour of Skills etc or paying the price. Which ... you kind of do, come to think [ETA: DaveB has ninja'd me with FWC's solution.].

Being able to play crossover games is just a logical consequence of having the same core rules and abilities in every line that you can add to, the "toolbox" approach.

Duel Arcane shouldn't be a spell...

Isn't "Squaring the Circle" or whatever already a spell? It's a spell that produces some sort of strange holodeck battle, with weapons based on your chosen Arcana that deal Willpower damage by default.

Right, but remember, every gameline is "crossing over" with the core rules. If something is overpowered, it needs to be "slowed to balance" with the core "mortal" options - which, if they even have an equivalent ability, means it should be balanced with other splats as well. That's why we have a nWoD, after all - to provide a core system for crossover play, along with a toolbox you can pick and choose from that (ideally) all work with that core and each other.

To quote Dave "[...]game balance is within a game, not between different games[...]"
Which was all my point was from the beginning.

That doesn't seem to be replying to me. Indeed, it's kind of the same thing the quoted text says.

Did you mean to quote something else there?

It seemed such a natural transition that I forgot that it was a specific new template (Like how in Scion, the transition from Hero to Demigod counts as a template change but follows a natural progression of that game line). That said, I actually completely agree with the idea that the path of an Archmaster, as a new template, should be more enforced as such. Like I said, my players always viewed it as "well, that is the next step, right?".

Yeah, I see what you mean.

It's *a* next step, but I wouldn't call it *the* next step. You might pursue other avenues of power and never reach Mastery. You might achieve Mastery and become Hierarch, focusing on shoring up your power base instead of withdrawing to meditate on your own Soul. You could go crazy and/or die. Etc, etc.

A mortals game *could* have you being Awakened or Embraced or whatever as the "next step". It's the same principle.

You're assuming it's not entirely deliberate!

Professional Training is there to encourage players to give characters proper backstories. By, yes, giving them more Merit dots.

Well, damn. You're absolutely right, I had not considered that. That explains a lot, and makes much more sense.

... there are players who buy Contacts and don't tie it into some backstory? Even as little as "he used to be involved in that ... professionally ..."? I guess I should be counting my blessings.

[Strill]

Generously, pattern scouring made sense in-universe but didn't work as a game mechanic because players don't feel pain; less generously it broke the mana economy entirely.

I'm pretty sure Tome of the Mysteries explains that it's not supposed to be painful.

[Dataweaver]

That doesn't make sense as Archmasters have been explicitly responsible for "Altantean" artifacts.

Imperial Practices have been explicitly responsible for “Atlantean” artifacts, not Archmasters — at least, not Archmasters as we know them today.

Modern Archmastery involves physically traveling into the Supernal (or, putting it another way, transforming yourself into a Supernal symbol); prior to the rise of the Exarchs, nobody did that; but there also was no Abyss between the Phenomenal and Supernal worlds, and plain old ordinary Astral Paths (as opposed to IM’s Golden Roads) stretched all the way into the Supernal, anchoring to personally-established Lustrums rather than to one of the five Watchtowers (which didn’t exist back then). This much is established fact.

I speculate that that arrangement meant that Atlantean mages with sufficiently high Gnosis were able to learn Imperial Arcana — that is, it didn’t take a Threshold Seeking to attain the sixth dot in one’s personal Ruling Arcana, and you didn’t need to acquire a new template to engage in Imperial Practices. Which is fortunate, because there were no Threshold Seekings nor an archmaster template back then; “Archmaster” merely meant “a mage who has access to Imperial Practices” — something that hasn’t been possible since the Fall. Conversely, I don’t know whether Atlantean mages would have had access to Imperial Spell Factors, and I’m fairly confident that the whole business of Exalting Omens and Ascending was nonexistent back then: the ability to actually edit Supernal reality was the driving motivation behind the rise of the Exarchs.