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  • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post

    That's a good point, I'm mostly trying to use this as a maintenance tool or precautionary diagnostic. Got a Grimoire with a Rote of unknown Providence? Run it through Sim Space to see if you can spot a hidden barb. Think a Rote might have become Warped? Sim Space!

    It would also serve as a development tool. Designing a spell in an arcana that you're poorly practiced in? Run it through Sim Space to see if you have the gist right yet

    Detecting a Warped rote is probably a Knowing of Prime, same goes for Befouled rotes. Grimmoires are crazy dangerous, any mage who does not have a Prime caster scan them first is asking for trouble. Grimmoires that can posses you, ones deliberately made unstable as safety measures (called Palimpsests), there is a lot that can go wrong.


    New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

    The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
    The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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    • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post


      Detecting a Warped rote is probably a Knowing of Prime, same goes for Befouled rotes. Grimmoires are crazy dangerous, any mage who does not have a Prime caster scan them first is asking for trouble. Grimmoires that can posses you, ones deliberately made unstable as safety measures (called Palimpsests), there is a lot that can go wrong.
      I thought Palimpsets were recycled Grimoires in this edition? The Scribe Palimpset spell in SoS doesn't seem deliberately malicious, more careless, at any rate.


      Monkish Asexual.

      I make Legacies when I'm bored. They're of middling quality, but have a look if you're interested. Advice and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

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      • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
        I think this does work. You have to call down the spell suppressed, but it works.
        Hmm, it does seem like a advanced Choose the Thread. You don’t need Supernal Dispellation, you could also use Temporal Stutter for roughly the same effect. Oh, or this could use Dispel Magic as a basis instead, since you can’t cast magic you don’t have dots for. So really you only need Prime 3 + Time 2?

        Edit: I don’t think Unraveling in general is constructive, I mean, by definition it’s deconstructive since it tears down something that exists. You might be able to turn that to constructive purposes, but something is weaker by definition. Maybe you could weaken the pressure uncomfortable Truths exerts on things? Like a more gentle Words of Truth? Or maybe you could weaken the hold Obsessions have on Mages.
        Actually, your and KaiserAfini's points may have rendered the idea redundant - I reread Display Of Power, and it looks like forming an imago for display without releasing it is indeed one of the uses of DoP.


        Monkish Asexual.

        I make Legacies when I'm bored. They're of middling quality, but have a look if you're interested. Advice and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

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        • Now I wonder what can be done leveraging Prime's domain of truth in a more physical manifestation.
          Last edited by KaiserAfini; 01-22-2022, 01:37 PM.


          New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

          The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
          The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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          • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
            Reveal True Form (Prime ••)
            Practice: Ruling
            Primary Factor: Potency
            Withstand: Stamina / Rank
            Suggested Rote Skills: Intimidation, Investigation, Occult
            The théarchs know that enforcing the Lex Magicka is hardly as simple as it may seem. Multiple red herrings can be used, some associates of the culprit can react with malicious shapeshifting and rulings must account for any treaties with other supernatural groups. With this in mind, the ability to reverse these transformations has been of great aid to unraveling cases.
            This spells commands the truth to reassert itself, forcing the subject to return to their true form and remain in it for the duration. Werewolves are forced back to human form, vampires see their claws revert to their normal shape, the Claimed have their entity cast back into Twilight, beings altered by Life magic return to normal and even changelings are forced to reveal their Mien. Any attempts to shift back provokes a Clash of Wills.
            Uh… even after momentarily setting aside in-game and crossover lore, are we sure this is just a mere Ruling spell?


            MtAw Homebrew:
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            • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

              Uh… even after momentarily setting aside in-game and crossover lore, are we sure this is just a mere Ruling spell?

              I thought it would be in the sense of using a Ruling to make the truth evident. If a Unveiling can detect falsehoods and a Weaving (Words of Truth) can modify speech to only allow truth, then I imagined a Ruling could make it assert itself. Although I do not own the Contragion Chronicle and am not 100% sure on crossover. Would there be a Practice that made more sense ?


              New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

              The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
              The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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              • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post


                I thought it would be in the sense of using a Ruling to make the truth evident. If a Unveiling can detect falsehoods and a Weaving (Words of Truth) can modify speech to only allow truth, then I imagined a Ruling could make it assert itself. Although I do not own the Contragion Chronicle and am not 100% sure on crossover. Would there be a Practice that made more sense ?
                ‘Normal’ shapeshifting (for whatever worth that may mean) should actually be fine as Prime Ruling. For most of the supernaturals you put as examples, however, their supernatural forms are their true forms, so there’s that first hurdle to pass. After that… I’d say Prime 4, either Patterning or Unraveling, at the least. I’d also toss in conjunctional Arcana requirements too.


                MtAw Homebrew:
                Even more Legacies, updated to 2E
                New 2E Legacies, expanded

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                • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                  ‘Normal’ shapeshifting (for whatever worth that may mean) should actually be fine as Prime Ruling. For most of the supernaturals you put as examples, however, their supernatural forms are their true forms, so there’s that first hurdle to pass. After that… I’d say Prime 4, either Patterning or Unraveling, at the least. I’d also toss in conjunctional Arcana requirements too.
                  I was thinking that their default form was the one without any active powers masking or mutating them. So for a vampire, they would lose the blush of life and changes from Protean, but still be able to use Vigor and Celerity.

                  Werewolves normally default to human form, so they would be moved back to it.

                  Changelings have their true forms passively concealed by the Mask and so on.

                  Unraveling also seems like it might work. But I thought Prime's focus on truth and revelation would be enough. Where a Fate and Mind effect would be needed to normally make a changeling show their true form, I think the focus of Prime's purview might be able to manage it.
                  Last edited by KaiserAfini; 01-21-2022, 08:52 PM.


                  New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                  The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                  The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post


                    I thought it would be in the sense of using a Ruling to make the truth evident. If a Unveiling can detect falsehoods and a Weaving (Words of Truth) can modify speech to only allow truth, then I imagined a Ruling could make it assert itself. Although I do not own the Contragion Chronicle and am not 100% sure on crossover. Would there be a Practice that made more sense ?
                    I wish the Contagion Chronicle Guide was that specific, but it’s not nearly long enough for that kind of detail. Basically, the majority of the time, if it take a certain arcanum to produce a effect, it’s generally falls under that arcanum when a non mage does it. Fire swords and mental manipulations are Forces and Mind effects respectively, whether or not it’s a Elemental Changeling or Werewolf causing them.


                    To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

                    So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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                    • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post

                      I was thinking that their default form was the one without any active powers masking or mutating them. So for a vampire, they would lose the blush of life and changes from Protean, but still be able to use Potence and Celerity.

                      Werewolves normally default to human form, so they would be moved back to it.

                      Changelings have their true forms passively concealed by the Mask and so on.

                      Unraveling also seems like it might work. But I thought Prime's focus on truth and revelation would be enough. Where a Fate and Mind effect would be needed to normally make a changeling show their true form, I think the focus of Prime's purview might be able to manage it.
                      Pierce Deception does explicitly see through Blush of Life and the Mask, so you are on to something. What I doubt in this arrangement here is the ability to go further, considering the metaphysical/Arcane forces associated with those critters.

                      For werewolves, iirc, them ‘normally defaulting’ to Hishu (human) form is more of the Hishu form being the ‘hiding form,’ rather than that being their ‘true’ form. All five forms are true to the Uratha; they are not mere men who turn into wolves, nor wolves who turn into men. (Contagion Chronicles puts “consider what the spell is doing in-character” as a basic guideline for Arcana, which is why I’m saying this here)

                      EDIT: I’d suggest just tacking on Arcanum requirements for affecting supernaturals; Death for vampires (since you’re attempting to assert dominance over the whole undead form, rather than just bits of it), Fate or Mind for changelings (but not both, since either Fate ‘or’ Mind Sight sees through the Mask), etc. Werewolves are trickier, between Life or Spirit… my personal preference goes to Spirit.

                      EDIT; Hey you know what, maybe this spell could be Prime Perfecting as a base.
                      Last edited by 21C Hermit; 01-21-2022, 09:03 PM.


                      MtAw Homebrew:
                      Even more Legacies, updated to 2E
                      New 2E Legacies, expanded

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post

                        I was thinking that their default form was the one without any active powers masking or mutating them. So for a vampire, they would lose the blush of life and changes from Protean, but still be able to use Potence and Celerity.

                        Werewolves normally default to human form, so they would be moved back to it.

                        Changelings have their true forms passively concealed by the Mask and so on.

                        Unraveling also seems like it might work. But I thought Prime's focus on truth and revelation would be enough. Where a Fate and Mind effect would be needed to normally make a changeling show their true form, I think the focus of Prime's purview might be able to manage it.
                        …erm, well the problem is that werewolves don’t have a default form. Human form is many werewolves preferred form, because they started out human, but that doesn’t make it the “True Form”. Every werewolf form is their “True Form”.The Blush of Life can be defeated by Prime, but I’m pretty sure talons created by Protean will still cut even with Prime Ruling showing everyone that the clawed person is one of the hungry dead. Because it’s not a disguise or a illusion. They really do have claws right now, like a bear or a tiger.

                        Edit: phrasing
                        Last edited by TempleBuilder; 01-21-2022, 08:59 PM.


                        To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

                        So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post

                          I was thinking that their default form was the one without any active powers masking or mutating them. So for a vampire, they would lose the blush of life and changes from Protean, but still be able to use Vigor and Celerity.

                          Werewolves normally default to human form, so they would be moved back to it.

                          Changelings have their true forms passively concealed by the Mask and so on.

                          Unraveling also seems like it might work. But I thought Prime's focus on truth and revelation would be enough. Where a Fate and Mind effect would be needed to normally make a changeling show their true form, I think the focus of Prime's purview might be able to manage it.
                          On the Mask, apparently every arcanum can pierce it, but only on features that fall under their purview. Life can see horns and flowers, Matter can see falling leaves, and Forces the heat and cold from a mantle.


                          To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

                          So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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                          • Werewolves aside, there's a genuine argument that can be made that any shapeshifting to forms that comes innately to the subject could be considered part of their true form.
                            Like, a mage casting Transform Life definitely imposes a shape that is not from the subject, but a vampire using Protean brings forth specific traits from inside themself. Growing long claws does require some supernatural effort on the part of the vampire, but they are already supernatural beings so that doesn't say much. Additionally, Protean specifically requires the vampire to integrate the specific traits inside themselves, so activating the power leads to them manifesting something that was already a part of them.
                            Blush of Life is even more part of a vampire than Protean: There's no shapeshifting used at all. The vampire is just jumpstarting a few biological processes that depends on biological organs that are preserved within them.

                            Also, the spell as written should immediately lead to a Clash of Wills; not just when they attempt to change again. You're actively disrupting their active supernatural powers, and that's a solid case of when you should use CoW.

                            A variation on the spell could be to freeze and enforce the subject's "current truth", leading to a CoW whenever they attempt to shapeshift away from how they were when you cast the spell on them. I think such a spell would be Perfecting as well as requiring adding dots of the Arcanum that governs the nature of the attempted shapeshifting: Life for any biological shapeshifting, Matter for shapeshifting that adds non-biological aspects to the subject, and Death/Mind/Spirit for ephemeral entities with shapeshifting Numina.
                            Since it's not about the subject's personal true form, it completely sidesteps the werewolf problem.


                            Writer for Bloodlines: The Ageless on STV
                            Some other stuff I've done: Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                            • Since the current direction of this spell has already drifted away from my original intent (a simple utility spell that leveraged Prime's domain of truth in a more physical way), I think I will edit out the spell for now and see what else I can come up with that constraint.


                              New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                              The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                              The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                              • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                                Since the current direction of this spell has already drifted away from my original intent (a simple utility spell that leveraged Prime's domain of truth in a more physical way), I think I will edit out the spell for now and see what else I can come up with that constraint.
                                Maybe a spell that forces them into the form they most identify with? It's still /a/ truth then, if not necessarily a supernal one


                                Monkish Asexual.

                                I make Legacies when I'm bored. They're of middling quality, but have a look if you're interested. Advice and suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

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