A possibly rather stupid question concerning Duat...

[Demigod Beast]

Is Duat in the Underworld? Or is it something altogether different? If they're the same, could Sin-Eaters theoretically reach Duat? If they're not the same, then by what criteria do some souls descend to the Underworld, while others go to Duat?

I apologize for what may well be a rather stupid question, especially if it's been spelled out clearly somewhere and I just didn't see it.

[espritdecalmar]

Duat's location is left a bit ambiguous. It might be in the Underworld, though the books also hint that the realm is one of the Lower Depths. I think it's one of those things that's going to depend on the needs of any given chronicle.

If any Sin-Eaters do manage to get there, the Judges are going to be pissed.

[Dave Brookshaw]

It's not the slightest bit ambiguous. Duat is not in the Underworld. It is a Lower Depth.

[Demigod Beast]

It's not the slightest bit ambiguous. Duat is not in the Underworld. It is a Lower Depth.

Thanks, Dave! I appreciate the quick response!

[Michael]

If they're not the same, then by what criteria do some souls descend to the Underworld, while others go to Duat?

The beings going to the Underworld are ghosts, not souls. The confusion comes from the poetic use of soul to refer to ghosts, but as technical terms in the setting, they're different. (The same happens when Duat is called the Underworld).

There's actually a bit on ghosts in the Mummy core that tocuhes on this.

[Omegaphallic]

It's not the slightest bit ambiguous. Duat is not in the Underworld. It is a Lower Depth.

The irony is that that the Underworld doesn't recieve souls, its Not really an afterlife at all, its more like a haunted dimesion that seems like an afterlife, but just for Ghosts.

But Duat does get souls, its an actual afterlife as well as a Lower Depths.

[reseru]

To really through you for a loop, Dark Eras Companion states that Anpu seems to be equal parts Lower Depth (Duat), Supernal, and Underworld. I wonder if all the Iremite gods are like that, if it's just Anpu, or if it came after they fell.

[Vent0]

Maybe there was a Pangaea (and Pangaean) equivalent for the Underworld? And it too was Sundered some time? Maybe Duat was cast into the Lower Depths?

[Azahul]

Maybe Duat was cast into the Lower Depths?

My Mage knowledge is pretty vague, but isn't a Lower Depth just any realm Mages aren't able to classify under any other existing label? I didn't think it was meant to denote any relative cosmological "space".

I'm working entirely from second-hand information here, mind you, but I was under the impression that it was a fairly meaningless term. At least for anyone who isn't a Mage.

[Vent0]

My Mage knowledge is pretty vague, but isn't a Lower Depth just any realm Mages aren't able to classify under any other existing label? I didn't think it was meant to denote any relative cosmological "space".

I'm working entirely from second-hand information here, mind you, but I was under the impression that it was a fairly meaningless term. At least for anyone who isn't a Mage.

Sure? It doesn't really affect my (wild) supposition, though - maybe "Duat" was once accessible, then became "elsewhere". It still exists, obviously, but Mages can't access it (or at least survive it if they can). So it goes in the "Lower Depth" bin.

[Dave Brookshaw]

My Mage knowledge is pretty vague, but isn't a Lower Depth just any realm Mages aren't able to classify under any other existing label? I didn't think it was meant to denote any relative cosmological "space".

I'm working entirely from second-hand information here, mind you, but I was under the impression that it was a fairly meaningless term. At least for anyone who isn't a Mage.

No.

It isn't a meaningless classification - it means an otherworldy dimension/place that's lacking some aspect of Fallen reality and consumes it, or has inhabitants that consume it when they break into more solid or ephemeral realms.

In Duat's case, Sekhem. Also souls.

[Azahul]

No.

It isn't a meaningless classification - it means an otherworldy dimension/place that's lacking some aspect of Fallen reality and consumes it, or has inhabitants that consume it when they break into more solid or ephemeral realms.

In Duat's case, Sekhem. Also souls.

Which also puts A'aru as a Lower Depth, right? Since that's where the souls are meant to (at least originally) end up? I'll note that it's not entirely meaningless, but the general point I was getting at with my previous post (that there's a lot of baggage associated with the phrase "cast into the Lower Depths" as if it were some kind of hell, when it's more a kind of semi-scientific nomenclature) still stands if you can as easily argue both of Mummy's afterlives count.

[Cleverest of Things]

Which also puts A'aru as a Lower Depth, right? Since that's where the souls are meant to (at least originally) end up? I'll note that it's not entirely meaningless, but the general point I was getting at with my previous post (that there's a lot of baggage associated with the phrase "cast into the Lower Depths" as if it were some kind of hell, when it's more a kind of semi-scientific nomenclature) still stands if you can as easily argue both of Mummy's afterlives count.

I think that's the difference. Duat is not the natural destination of souls, its more like a tollbooth on the road that demands payment and sends most people back the way they came before they see the place where souls are supposed to go. A'aru is likely where souls were meant to go, whether its the supernal or elsewhere. Only the Dreams of Avarice and heretic apotheiosists would know. Dust isn't somewhere whole, its a broken, conquered thing.

Now, an interesting question might be if Anpu is the ghost of Father Wolf. Perhaps the legends of Anpu, protector of the borders between earth and other realms, was the same deity as father wolf? Perhaps Anpu didn't precisely abdicate his throne for Azar so much as witness mages, werewolves, shaniatu, and other things mix things up, and found himself overthrown forcefully?


With him gone, the Shaniatu had enough freedom to study enough on between to find one they liked, Duat. There it was, conveniently placed to access souls going onward and upward to the supernal and to a'aru, but also oblivion and the abyss. Then, step two.. then three, profit. Nobody was going anywhere without the strict approval of the Judges, unless they got stuck as restless dead in twilight or the underworld.

Indeed, if Mummies CAN get to the Underworld (we know Deceived explicitly can't), they might see it as the depths of Neter-Kertet.

[reseru]

I don't consider A'aru a Lower Depth, if it's even a place anyway.

Despite it's iconic description of being barren, it represents a heaven, a sort of place of fulfillment, belonging, and rest. To Lower Depth beings A'aru is a place where they have all that they naturally lack and desire. Hell, it might even be our regular ol' fallen world.

[Azahul]

I think that's the difference. Duat is not the natural destination of souls, its more like a tollbooth on the road that demands payment and sends most people back the way they came before they see the place where souls are supposed to go. A'aru is likely where souls were meant to go, whether its the supernal or elsewhere. Only the Dreams of Avarice and heretic apotheiosists would know. Dust isn't somewhere whole, its a broken, conquered thing.

Except that from what we know, it was a "broken, conquered thing" before it was broken/conquered. At least if we use the term "Lower Depth" to denote that it is broken.

More importantly, nothing in Dave's description gave me the impression that a Lower Depth was inherently unnatural (setting aside the fact that it's undoubtedly supernatural). Duat could easily be part of the natural process and still consume aspects of the world. Predators and scavengers are natural.