Homunculi: Revenant-Equivalents for Prometheans

[Arcanist]

MCN I see what you mean. I'm still trying to figure out what Homunculi bring to the table myself, mostly because I'm still refining exactly what they are and what they do in a given Chronicle. I'm starting to get inklings of almost (almost, mind you) using them like a Fetch in that they should be a reflection of the Created, but I feel like that roll is better handled with sublimati and the role they fulfill as beings that never were, and don't desire to be, human.

What would you see as the role of a Homunculus or Homunculus-like character in a story, above and beyond the Created themselves?

[Verge]

Revenants, in the context of Vampire, have a very specific story purpose. I don't quite understand the purpose of homoculi from a story perspective. What do they do? What do they represent? Otherwise, we'll just end up with the Proximus problem.

A homunculus can do a number of things for the story. First of all, they are not on the Pilgrimage, but can potentially, willingly step foot on it. This sets up a different perspective on following or refusing it, a wholly different relationship with the journey from that of the Created. They also represent a different starting point, as they may endure a longer "infancy" with their creator, and get to know a human intimately as their first experience. This sets them up to experience dependency too, and thus they feel alienation more sharply than their Created kin, who have to find their own way very early. Finally, the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" conundrum of the Pilgrimage gets played out at high speed before the Promethean's eyes, watching the homunculus struggle to remain fed and survive its enslavement and abuse.

Thematically, a homunculus represents a wretched and more pathetic creature than a Promethean, but one that is not irredeemable the way a Pandoran is. Similarly, they create an opening for alchemists and their arts to enter the story, perhaps in the form of a "good master". Homunculi could be Judas goats, luring credulous Created into traps. Alchemists might think themselves geniuses for succeeding in creating homunculi, but when they see their first Promethean, they might believe themselves fools, and take it out on the homunculi.

[Geckopirateship]

Also, they fill a similar niche to Larva in that they provide a way for an antagonist to throw a lot of disposable mooks at the characters (if you don't want to use Pandorans for that).

[Dataweaver]

…and with that in mind, it should be considerably easier to mass-produce homunculi than it is to mass-produce Prometheans.

Note also that clones can be considered to be a subset of homunculi: that is, a clone is a homunculus who looks just like an existing person, probably because his or her flesh or blood was used in its creation.

[Geckopirateship]

Alchemists can't usually control Pandorans, right? I can't remember what the books say, but it would make sense, and in that case homunculi are even handier as a way to give them minions.

[Geckopirateship]

Also, how would you make a really big homunculus, if you wanted a villain to have a huge corpse chimera guardian, or a big spider mech vehicle? Pandorans don't usually get very large, so homunculi could provide an alternative to them there.

And what role could these serve with alchemists as player characters or allies? It could be an interesting dilemma to say that it's ultimately impossible create a no-guilt Pyros-powered robot, because dumping the Fire into anything risks it developing a mind. That would also be another way to draw a line between "good" and "bad" alchemists and have a reason for the (relatively) good ones to work with Prometheans- because they aren't comfortable creating disposable minions.

[Dataweaver]

Alchemists can't usually control Pandorans, right? I can't remember what the books say, but it would make sense, and in that case homunculi are even handier as a way to give the minions.

Well, that's what they're for: to serve their alchemist masters.

And to provide a basis for Promethean stories of rebellion, as Verge pointed out: a Promethean who started out as a homunculus has a very different social dynamic from the traditional Promethean. But then, that's not a homunculus anymore; it's a full-fledged Promethean.

And yes, there are thematic similarities to both the Lost and the Unchained, and probably even the Remade, in that a former homunculus' story of independence from its former owner is almost certainly going to be one of rebellion against said master.

[Verge]

…and with that in mind, it should be considerably easier to mass-produce homunculi than it is to mass-produce Prometheans.

Note also that clones can be considered to be a subset of homunculi: that is, a clone is a homunculus who looks just like an existing person, probably because his or her flesh or blood was used in its creation.

That's the trickier part, getting to a mook class from here. I do want to find a means of doing clones, but batch homunculi like clones aren't a great fit for what we have so far. A clutch of clones might differ in that they might share an Azoth with each other, instead of their creator. But that still creates a Pyros sink that needs to be addressed, if each clone's needs are assessed individually. Plus, I'm a little less sanguine about clones having the same potential for the Pilgrimage, but I can't say why exactly.

[MCN]

Similarly, they create an opening for alchemists and their arts to enter the story, perhaps in the form of a "good master". Homunculi could be Judas goats, luring credulous Created into traps. Alchemists might think themselves geniuses for succeeding in creating homunculi, but when they see their first Promethean, they might believe themselves fools, and take it out on the homunculi.

So, is this just another "Make Alchemists Great Again!" thread in disguise? Shame, I thought it would be something actually related to Prometheans that could stand on its own, not be slaved to a side story of a Promethean story.

[Arcanist]

Actually, no, it's not. The idea of a Homunculus Is inseparable from that of an Alchemist. The stars of the show here are Homunculi, not their masters, but the original concepts have them pretty explicitly as little more than extensions of their master's will. That leaves a character with very little agency, but even in changing it the defining relationship for a Homunculus is with their creator, even more so than a Promethean.

I have more thoughts on this now, but I'll get to it later.

[Geckopirateship]

Did you just compare people who like playable alchemists to Trump supporters? That's pretty much a Godwin, sorry.

[Xenorath]

So, is this just another "Make Alchemists Great Again!" thread in disguise? Shame, I thought it would be something actually related to Prometheans that could stand on its own, not be slaved to a side story of a Promethean story.

Adding greater depth to Alchemists ultimately helps make Promethean as a game about Prometheans better because it allows Alchemists to be better antagonists and supporting characters. The ideas that people have been throwing around here have created something that is almost a Promethean but not quite which allows them to work as a twisted mirror much like Pandorans and Alchemists already do.

[Verge]

This is all in service to Promethean, not some side door for playable or nice alchemists. Note that the alchemist in this equation is still the bad guy. He probably degenerates faster than other alchemists simply due to his proximity to obviously supernatural circumstances, not to mention the whole enslavement issue.

The thing is, Prometheans themselves are the translation of the real-world idea of the homunculus into the Chronicles of Darkness. They're artificial, alchemical people. Promethean diverges from this in that they are also independent and isolated from humanity, and difficult to maintain in the sort of relationships at the heart of the homunculus story. Disquiet automatically makes the relationship antagonistic, whereas what I think we're listing toward here is symbiotic, codependent, and tenable. I know my work has been meant to keep alchemy secondary to the Promethean elements, so if you wouldn't mind addressing the parts where you think I'm trying to elevate insatiate alchemy, then do.

[Geckopirateship]

Godwinning aside, I can't get behind MCN's criticism at all. I mean, my first thought when I saw this was what I mentioned earlier, that narratively it was a good device to introduce swarms of mooks for alchemist villains.

And honestly, even if it had been presented entirely in terms of an option for playable alchemists...there isn't exactly a wealth of content for that, and I don't see it as being a topic that's in danger of consuming the board. I also can't see how it isn't connected to Promethean, considering that it's closely tied to the game's setting and mechanics and several people have pointed out how directly it ties into its themes. Honestly, the only way I can parse your criticism is that you don't like anything that has to do with alchemists, which is fine, but not really an argument against homunculi as the original poster presented them.

[ManusDomine]

So, is this just another "Make Alchemists Great Again!" thread in disguise? Shame, I thought it would be something actually related to Prometheans that could stand on its own, not be slaved to a side story of a Promethean story.

This is a sad argument that makes for sad people.

Homunculi are great because one of Promethean's primary aesthetics is "weird alchemy", and the creation of artificial life was a focus of medieval alchemists. Homuculi add something to the setting in the form of a step before Promethean while touching on the same narrative space through a different argument.

But going "Make Alchemists Great Again!" is a terrible argument, even for such an obvious strawman.