Alternate Clan Bane & Animalism?

[MCN]

Still feels very odd to have a vampire with Humanity 1 thats in love with multiple people.

Well, its not really love. Think possessive. Think obsessive. Think co-dependant. "It’s easy to confuse for love. It’s a strong, pervasive affection that makes you vulnerable, and keeps you persistently wanting more." You're in blood-lust for a mortal that you cultivate through mind control methods into willing slave that will crack open a vein for you and let you suck them dry and you won't feel a thing about their death. At Humanity 1, you can hurt them even and be perfectly okay with that.

I'm really a bit sad that they got rid of the succubus nick-name for Daeva, because that's an even better description of what the Daeva are now than ever. They are obsessed with the victims even as they suck the very life out of them, getting off on killing them. They don't understand emotions of their target (that humanity penalty covers Empathy checks as well), and they just know they want more and more. In a lot of ways, Humanity 1 Daeva are like the Gentry, bringing people into their orbit, becoming obsessed with them, but completely unable to relate to them in the slightest, just running off an artificial, supernaturally compelled "love" that's really more lust than love.

Assuming they're not avoiding the bane by hunting down random people and sucking them dry on the street after a random encounter.

Also, the regnant has bonuses to manipulate, persuade the daeva.

And the Daeva is getting bonuses right back in greater numbers. At minimum, we're talking Persistant Swooning on all the herd. Very likely, we're also adding on level three blood bonds, addicted to both blood and fang, and Wanton. And that's before we start adding Majesty to the mix. This creates an obsession, not a slavery chain. Second stage blood bond isnt' slavery. Hells, remember that, with our example Humanity 1 vampire above, they don't even suffer a penalty for hurting the blood doll. And a +2 bonus is nothing compared to what a Daeva can dish out on a whim.

People like to focus on the bonuses the blood doll gets, but not the reverse. They tend to miss how its a two way street, and where that street cuts off, and how much larger the Daeva's is. There is this impression, because there's a +2 bonus and 2 step Impression, that means the Daeva is going to be the herd's slave, and dote on them. But its not - the Daeva can out Social Maneuver the blood doll at pretty much any time if they want. The doll starts to try, and the Daeva counters with a bigger pool, or with Lashing Out and takes them in another direction, etc.

Interestingly, it should also be pointed out that these herds also make better Touchstones than usual. That +2 bonus and improved Impression mean we can talk down a vampire getting ready to frenzy.

Me and my group also doesn't want the bane to be a "gotcha" thing. But since it then would be completly in the hands of the players, the bane assumes everybody is equally good at roleplaying

It doesn't have to be about roleplaying either if you don't want. If you go with the promiscuous succubus route, then you can't have a Herd merit, and that hurts you in terms of blood. And pretty much every covenant has a Herd bonus of some kind, which hurts you there. Less blood is an obvious mechanical weakness here.

If you go with the cultivating herd route, then you have a group of individuals that you "care" for. They make very good hostiges or threats from rival vampires and poachers. Its enough to set someone off in a rage. They're yours, dammit. You don't need roleplaying to know that you're possessive of the people you feed on, and that can translate to bonus dice or Hard Leverage on social dice rolls. Good way to push someone into action. Either for or against the pusher.

And that's before we start talking beats. You get beats for doing requests for your herd as well as for eating them. Both are more ST oriented things, but they do create stories, and that's more important here than anything else.

[tsusasi]

One could say that the Ventrue weakness is that they can't have two attached touchstones when at Humanity 2 and can't have any attached touchstones at Humanity 1, ensuring they have an easier time falling to Draugr once they've reached the low end of the scale.

That's what the bane already does. Ventrue can't have any touchstones at Humanity 1 and at most they only have one attached Touchstone a Humanity 2 . The free one for Ventrue is auto attached at 7, not 6 like every other clan. And the merit scales downward from there. The chart on p. 115 of Blood and Smoke demonstrates it.

[Neros]

Ventrue Bane
It is true you gain nothing from losing that first Touchstone (didn't pay for any merits). And i can see the interesting thing of investing the dots in a different place to give it more narative.

But so far, I am thinking the worsened link to the Touchstone Tessie and others on the other Threads have suggested, is the best. It is simple and still follows the "not as connected to even the Touchstone"-theme.

Both Banes
After MCN's great examples, I can more clearly see the problem me and my group are having (especially with the Daeva bane).
When going deeper as he did, the Daeva bane feels to us, very wonky and complicated, especially when compared to the other banes. But with the Daeva and Ventrue, before they really become a bane, allot of roleplay is needed. This is a problem since not everybody is equal in how strong they are at roleplaying. So the Daeva and Ventru will be very hard to play, even though they may be interested in playing them.

[Tessie]

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but there's another problem with the Daeva bane. For the vast majority of kindred it simply has no effect when at BP6+.

[Neros]

Why wouldn't it affect vampires with Blood Potency 6+? What makes them immune to being "blood bonded"?

[Tessie]

Because the bane is only triggered by mortals, and drinking from mortals at BP6+ requires very special techniques or such a high Willpower expenditure that it's not a sustainable method of gaining Vitae.

[Neros]

That is true.. You can do it, but as you said, you have to put more effort into it..

[RomulusGloriosus]

But, I mean, by that point (BP6+) you are literally being blood-bonded by drinking from vampires instead of being metaphorically blood-bonded to mortals, so it still sucks??

[Tessie]

Unless you find another way of gaining Vitae, such as through Unnatural Affinity.
Either way it's completely unrelated to the clan bane. The other four clans still suffer from their banes when they reach BP6+.

[tsusasi]

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but there's another problem with the Daeva bane. For the vast majority of kindred it simply has no effect when at BP6+.

Yes it does. Their dependant condition doesn't go away just because human blood doesn't sustain them anymore. In fact they are going to be inclined to blow willpower to feed off their pet humans who they got addicted to being blood dolls in the first place to make them happy. Or offset the vitae loss they need to spend to keep them around for eternity, as a ghoul.
If they've fed off a vampire three times, which would normally invoke the dependant condition, they're "worse off", they're under a 3 stage vinculum instead. That's still a risk at higher BP levels

[Rathamus]

One could say that the Ventrue weakness is that they can't have two attached touchstones when at Humanity 2 and can't have any attached touchstones at Humanity 1, ensuring they have an easier time falling to Draugr once they've reached the low end of the scale.

That's a good idea. The 2E Ventrue bane always felt like a cop-out to me.

If you want to play it up as the Aloof Curse, then how about something similar to the Mekhet Bane: Treat your Humanity as 2 lower for resisting Detachment.

Or perhaps: May only purchase new Touchstones in a slot 1 lower than current Humanity(Cannot place them higher OR lower) and can not benefit from having more than one Touchstone attached to any given Humanity level.

I think both would make for more of a struggle to maintain Humanity instead of just being a 1xp tax.

[Tessie]

If Ventrues only can have equal to Humanity -1 they'd have no attached Touchstones at Humanity 3. That's pretty brutal.

As for resisting Detachment, that would have no effect or even a positive effect depending on how to interpret it. Current Humanity is not a modifier when rolling for detachment. And if you treat the Ventrue as having lower Humanity when checking to see if something is a Breaking Point they'd actually suffer less Breaking Points.

[MCN]

I've only had one vampire ever fall to humanity 3, and I had to make the PC deliberately designed to fall.

[Tessie]

In my group we joke about Humanity 3 being high. Which it kinda is when Humanity 2 is the average and neither character has been at Humanity 4 for at least one in-game year.

Edit: But you have a point. In groups where nobody will hit Humanity 3 the bane becomes a non-issue (other than the fact that Humanity 4 would be capped at one attached Touchstone) similarly to the published bane.

[Rathamus]

Yeah I adjusted it to be more evenly tough since the other way it would only really kick in when you're knocking on the door of Draugrhood