A Coil for Physical Intensity

[Arduras]

Hey, just putting this up for review. My last Coil (Erinyes) may have been a been scattered in relation to scope.
So here is a Coil for the discerning dragon looking to get an edge in a surprise or physical altercation.

● Unleash Potential
Add Coil Dots as dice to the first use of Physical Intensity in a turn.

●● Boiling Overdrive
Each turn spent in Frenzy awards 1 free use of Intensity.

●●● Eroding Dragon
Physical Intensity may now last a number of turns equal to the base attribute. This cannot be used on more than one attribute at a time and the duration may never exceed the attribute.

●●●● Beast's Veneer
May now use Physical Intensity with Resistance Attributes.

●●●●● Sanguine Paw
My use ● more than once. For each use after the first in a turn, take the Tempted Condition. If used during Frenzy, when the Frenzy ends gain the Steadfast Condition. Possible Addition: When the Tempted Condition is gained from ● during Frenzy, it cannot be resolved until that Frenzy ends.

[Jakondite]

*considers* I'm not sure this is bad, it's quite interesting in fact. For the Eroding Dragon effect, however - perhaps it would be better to suggest that it cannot be used on the same attribute rather than more than one attribute at a time? Or just that it only effects one use of physical intensity at a time? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the intended goal, but the way it seems to read is that a vampire with coil 5 could go into a frenzy, get a free physical intensity once per turn and apply it to a strength (maybe it's a Nos, with a strength 5), and keep doing this for 5 turns, investing this entirely into strength each turn - granting a +25 bonus to strength rolls, assuming they aren't using vitae to pump it further. After that, the first use wears off but is replaced by a new use, continuously?

Is this the intended goal?

[amechra]

An interesting starting point!

However, the Frenzy-based boosts just don't feel right. Coils tend to focus on one aspect of the vampire condition, without really touching stuff outside their purview - they also tend to be much more passive. I'm also left a bit cold by the big "first time in a turn" boost - then again, I cap all bonuses/penalties at ±5 and dislike big number boosts, so that's just me.

[Arduras]

Well, I figured Frenzy is a pretty physical expression, and being able to use that unbridled power in a (potentially constructive/destructive) way seemed fitting. That being said, coming up with 5 effects explicitly for Physical Intensity was surprisingly difficult since it's just a +2 mechanic. It also gave me a good drawback so the Steadfast Condition isn't just spammed (ie rewarded with just any use of Intensity) I'm open to suggestions to new effects though. This is just what I wrote down in an afternoon after trying to come up with a list of effects. One of the old iterations from the previous Coil was to add BP to a single Intensity roll, for example.

As for Frenzy, you only have so much Vitae. If you burn through all 10-15 of it (or live long enough to be BP9/10 that's +14 dice to strength for a few turns, sure. Each use would just refresh the duration, not extend it, and by limiting it to one attribute you have to choose - for the next 1-5 turns (or 6-10 if high BP) that's your choice, no taking it back for another one so it's also an opportunity cost in a sense.

Reworked it based on what I got from this thread and some ideas. Physical Intensity RAW is limited to 1 attribute anyway. (ie +X dice to a Strength roll)

● Unleash Potential
Add Coil dots as dice to the first use of Physical Intensity in a turn.

●● Devour Melancholy

The first use of Intensity in a scene rewards the Steadfast Condition.

●●● Eroding Dragon
Physical Intensity may now last a number of turns equal to the base attribute, this benefit cannot be applied to more than one Intensity at a time.

●●●● Beast’s Veneer
Physical Intensity may be used for Resistance Attributes.

●●●●● Sanguine Paw

For every vitae spent on Physical Intensity in a turn, ignore 1 armour or durability of a character or object that is the target of an attack.

It's obviously a combat Coil, but a side effect is you can use Steadfast to shirk the bond roll (still costs WP) and spend vitae 1 for 2 to get dice on the addiction roll if you really want to just take a chunk out of the other guy. You won't really gain any vitae for it, but you can really cramp someone's style by making them have to check for Frenzy and just throwing vitae to the wind (both of your characters' vitae, that is) OR take the bond and use Steadfast for the Frenzy check so you retain your senses and just sidestep the frenzy (although being bonded in the middle of a fight has it's own problems)

[Maina]

I agree with Frenzy feeling out of place. It stretches outside the realm of Physical Intensity, and it steps on the toes of the Coil of the Wyrm.

[MCN]

Some thoughts - the Ordo Dracul book, while it didn't have a Coil of Spending Vitae exactly... the Rites of the Impailed had a few devotions that worked on the idea. Perhaps that can be used as some inspiration.

#notallalchemists

[tsusasi]

Count me as not a fan of this stacking in frenzy. Frenzy is about giving control over to the Beast for sheer destructive power and the application of physical intensity to a single specific roll in a turn of frenzy for anything other than strength strikes me as too methodical, even with Coil of the Wyrm. And I allow things like using guns and using dominate to swiftly remove obstacles while in frenzy.
I also don't like free auto-successes being carried around indefinitely by reflexively spending a single point of vitae.
I'm so-so on the concept of allowing the effect to carry on through 4+ turns but would probably have less issue with it in certain circumstances.

Instead of this being nothing but a combat enhancer providing immunity to stupid decisions in combat, (biting a vampire in combat should be a stupid and risky proposition for anything and flinging around 25 dice in combat should not mitigate that) why not expand it to things like providing the +2 bonus to any single attribute roll in a turn, regardless. Things like discipline activation, spellcasting, extended actions like research, social encounters, could benefit. Or being allowed to permanently designate a single skill, resistance attribute that always gets a +2 enhancement whenever physical intensity is activated for anything. Or tag it to a single physical discipline where you get an automatic +2 to the active use powers Or being allowed to use it to providing a +2 to clash of will which fits into the premise of boosting the short-term enhancement power.

[Arduras]

Clash Of Wills is nice, but no Coil currently touches Disciplines at all and it seems taboo to do so since they go on and on for ages about how you can't touch anything other than the core curse/mechanics.In the game I'm currently playing, people are already spamming Inspired and the like for easy experience and it's being encouraged to game the system any way possible. Steadfast is an easily obtained condition (1 exceptional success, can even use Inspired to get it) so I figured it'd be a cool addition to the Coil. Regarding Frenzy stuff the revised edition doesn't touch it at all just a few posts above this one.\
I chose Resistance Attributes because they seemed to make the most sense, if I just said any attribute people would say the Coil is OP xD

So basically replace ●● with May now use Intensity with Clash of Wills, and remove the "Attack" qualifier from ●●●●●

[nofather]

Clash Of Wills is nice, but no Coil currently touches Disciplines at all and it seems taboo to do so since they go on and on for ages about how you can't touch anything other than the core curse/mechanics.

It's probably because Disciplines already allow for customization via Devotions.

[S. Brechen]

What does the "resistance attribute" thing mean ? Stamina is a resistance attribute and it can be boosted with physical intensity (although the benefits are a lot less obvious).

All in all, I'm not sure I like the idea a lot. This basically translates as "moar dice", which, well... I dunno. Maybe a bit too in your face ? Physical intensity is already pretty powerful, especially at higher BP. I mean, at BP 10, you can spend 15 vitae and have 30 bonus attack dice. Do we need 5 extra dice in addition to that ? Mostly, one thing I kinda like is that celerity and Vigor cmpete with each other. Then, physical intensity gives the extra edge. Having a thing with more dice yet just seems either unnecessary or unbalanced.

I guess if you want to make an absolute juggernaut of a character, why not, but yeah.

[Arduras]

It means you can use it with Resolve and Composure, which are typically used to resist supernatural powers (sometimes on their own against 3 dice pools for the aggressor) I figured that was better than just saying "any attribute".

edit: So I came up with a new effect, and the coil would no read as follows:

● for 1 WP you can use Physical Intensity for free up to [Coil dots] times in a scene. Can't be used more than once per scene.
●● The first use of Intensity in a scene awards the a beneficial condition (as per exceptional success) as you revel in the power of the blood. Doesn't stack, if the roll is exceptional take the beneficial condition, but don't take 2 conditions on a single roll.
●●● For 1 WP, Physical intensity lasts a number of turns equal to the base attribute, this cannot be applied to more than one turn's worth of intensity at a time.
●●●● If you use Physical Intensity more times than your capacity for WP in a scene, regain a WP. Can only regain WP this way once per scene.
●●●●● Physical Intensity can now be used for any attribute.

[Aneas]

It means you can use it with Resolve and Composure, which are typically used to resist supernatural powers (sometimes on their own against 3 dice pools for the aggressor) I figured that was better than just saying "any attribute".

edit: So I came up with a new effect, and the coil would no read as follows:

● for 1 WP you can use Physical Intensity for free up to [Coil dots] times in a scene. Can't be used more than once per scene.
●● The first use of Intensity in a scene awards the a beneficial condition (as per exceptional success) as you revel in the power of the blood. Doesn't stack, if the roll is exceptional take the beneficial condition, but don't take 2 conditions on a single roll.
●●● For 1 WP, Physical intensity lasts a number of turns equal to the base attribute, this cannot be applied to more than one turn's worth of intensity at a time.
●●●● If you use Physical Intensity more times than your capacity for WP in a scene, regain a WP. Can only regain WP this way once per scene.
●●●●● Physical Intensity can now be used for any attribute.

I really like your idea of a Coil for Physical intensity! Physical Intensity is one of the best rules in the game imho, and it certainly deserves a coil of it's own. I'm not sure exactly what it is you're trying to accomplish with the Coil though, and figuring out a clear goal and thoroughly exploring the mechanic you're altering is always a good start, at least in my experience.


If I can give some input, the reason Physical Intensity(PI) is so great is because it creates a direct correlation between power and Vitae. If ya got more Vitae, you are more physically powerful than Kindred with low Vitae. Physical disciplines does this too, but in a more limited fashion and requires purchasing dots, but PI is an innate ability all Kindred have.
So because of PI, Vitae=Power. You want as much Vitae as possible, yeah? How do you get more Vitae? By having more domain. How to you get more domain? But fucking people over in the Danse Macabre.

So Power=Vitae=Territory=Politics. Yum.

Also, by getting people to spend Vitae with PI, you naturally get more of that sweet frenzy/feeding drama. Double whammy!
So with this in mind, I'd say what your really want to do is encourage the players to spend as much Vitae as possible with your PI. This reinforces the idea of territory=Power and just makes games sessions better.

I really like the 2nd, 4th and 5th dot in your Coil, but it might be a good idea to look over the other two one more time? They make PI more effective, but that doesn't necessarily translate to more fun/drama. Instead, maybe an effect that incentivies them to activate PI more often? Say they get their +2 the first time they activate PI, but with the first dot in your coil, they get +3 for every Vitae they spend after the last one? Something like that?

[Arduras]

I really like your idea of a Coil for Physical intensity! Physical Intensity is one of the best rules in the game imho, and it certainly deserves a coil of it's own. I'm not sure exactly what it is you're trying to accomplish with the Coil though, and figuring out a clear goal and thoroughly exploring the mechanic you're altering is always a good start, at least in my experience.


If I can give some input, the reason Physical Intensity(PI) is so great is because it creates a direct correlation between power and Vitae. If ya got more Vitae, you are more physically powerful than Kindred with low Vitae. Physical disciplines does this too, but in a more limited fashion and requires purchasing dots, but PI is an innate ability all Kindred have.
So because of PI, Vitae=Power. You want as much Vitae as possible, yeah? How do you get more Vitae? By having more domain. How to you get more domain? But fucking people over in the Danse Macabre.

So Power=Vitae=Territory=Politics. Yum.

Also, by getting people to spend Vitae with PI, you naturally get more of that sweet frenzy/feeding drama. Double whammy!
So with this in mind, I'd say what your really want to do is encourage the players to spend as much Vitae as possible with your PI. This reinforces the idea of territory=Power and just makes games sessions better.

I really like the 2nd, 4th and 5th dot in your Coil, but it might be a good idea to look over the other two one more time? They make PI more effective, but that doesn't necessarily translate to more fun/drama. Instead, maybe an effect that incentivies them to activate PI more often? Say they get their +2 the first time they activate PI, but with the first dot in your coil, they get +3 for every Vitae they spend after the last one? Something like that?

This is an old concept now, but I'm still open to developing it and eventually using in the game I'm in if it can be refined.

The first dot was originally "the first use of physical intensity in a turn gets awards bonus dice equal to your coil dots" so the first use would be +3 but with 5 dots it'd be +7. I think it was deemed OP though :/

The second dot should just be something along the lines of "When using Intensity, you get an exceptional on 3 instead of 5."

The third dot, I like, but it kind of defeats the purpose in a way. At one point it was something like store your blood potency as vitae above what you could normally hold.

[amechra]

Ooh, I just thought of something.

What if the first dot let you spend Vitae on Physical Intensity up to [Coil] times per turn without touching your limit on Vitae spent for that turn?

So a BP 1 Dragon with five dots in the Coil could spend five Vitae on Physical Intensity each turn, while still having access to that one last bit of vitae/turn for other things?

For the third dot... why not let them use Physical Intensity to gain +2 Speed or +1 Defense?

[Arduras]

Ooh, I just thought of something.

What if the first dot let you spend Vitae on Physical Intensity up to [Coil] times per turn without touching your limit on Vitae spent for that turn?

So a BP 1 Dragon with five dots in the Coil could spend five Vitae on Physical Intensity each turn, while still having access to that one last bit of vitae/turn for other things?

For the third dot... why not let them use Physical Intensity to gain +2 Speed or +1 Defense?

Physical Intensity is a burst (it only applies to 1 roll usually) and it feels like a rush of burning for a moment as you exert yourself.

I like the idea of being able to dump more vitae, but most kindred aren't going to have the reserves to do that very often, that being said it's a pretty good first dot.

Third dot I think would be nice if it just increased the potency of Intensity from +2 to + coil dots (so it becomes +3,4,5 at 3/4/5 dots)
This wouldn't be too powerful, especially compared to Zirnitra or daywalking with Ascendant.

I'd also like to be able to use Intensity with the Predatory Aura, but maybe at only the base +2 but that might not be as thematic.


● You can use Physical Intensity as many times as you have dots in this coil per turn without affecting your per-turn vitae limit.
●● Physical Intensity now increases derived traits for the turn it's used.
●●● When you use Intensity, it now gives you coil dots extra instead of +2.
●●●● When you roll an exceptional success with Physical Intensity, you may take the Ecstatic condition. Once per scene, this awards one willpower.
●●●●● You may use Intensity with any attribute.