Sublunario [Dead Wolves 2E]

[gebbethine]

A while ago a friend and I did a bunch of 2E conversions of 1E Bloodline Disciplines. We used the Bloodline creation style used for the Khaibit and their Obtenebration for all our Bloodlines, so they all get 1 additional Discipline, a Gift, and then 4 Devotions.

This is our version of Sublunario, for the Dead Wolves.


Dead Wolves

Animalism, Protean, Nightmare, Resilience

Gift: Sublunario

Members of the Bloodline are eligible to fully join packs, and are always counted at least as highly as any Wolfblood in the hierarchy. Dead Wolves may purchase the Totem Merit without restriction, and perhaps most importantly, they may gain the benefit of the Rite of the Sacred Hunt (though they cannot perform it themselves). If the pack brings down a spirit for essence, the Dead Wolf’s share instead becomes vitae.

Bane: Tied as they are to both Luna and the Uratha, members of the Dead Wolves are susceptible to the touch of Silver. Silver Weapons always deal Lethal Damage to Dead Wolves.

Spiritualism (Animalism 3, Protean 2)

Can use the first three powers of the Animalism Discipline on Spirits in differing ways:

• Feral Whispers allows them to command spirits (spirit resists with Resistance) and speak First Tongue with spirits and Uratha.
• Raise the Familiar now allows the vampire to feed Spirits Vitae as if it were Essence, making it a powerful bargaining chip. Spirits resist the Blood Bond with their Resistance, and shed it after a month of no Vitae from the same vampire, rather than a year.
• With Summon the Hunt the vampire can now call Spirits the same way she can animals. Spirits can never be of a Rank higher than the vampire’s [Animalism -2].

Spiritualism costs 3 experiences to learn.

Urshul (Protean 3, Resilience 3)

This simple but potent Devotion enables the Kindred to take on the mighty form of the Urshul dire-wolf. By spending a vitae to enact Beast’s Skin, they may take on Urshul Form (WtF p. 97) with all the effects thereof except the ability to Inflict Lunacy.

Urshul costs 3 experiences to learn.

Lunacy (Nightmare 2)

Allows the vampire to inflict one of the 4 Lunacy Conditions on a target by spending 1 Vitae and rolling Presence + Intimidation + Nightmare - Composure. This does not work on anyone who is naturally immune to real Lunacy.

Lunacy costs 2 experiences to learn.

Reaching (Animalism 5, Protean 5)

Using this Devotion, the Dead Wolf is capable of joining his Uratha packmates in the hisil. After marking a territory with Lord of the Land, the Kindred can spend 3 Vitae and 1 Willpower point to step through the Gauntlet and into the Shadow. From that point, the vampire can go anywhere in the Shadow, but they must return to their territory in order to come back from the hisil. As a side-effect, the territory marked in the world of the Flesh is also marked in the Shadow once the vampire crosses, granting them all the effects of Lord of the Land in that area of the Shadow. If the vampire doesn’t make it back to her territory before the effects of their Discipline are over, she must find another way to return to the land of the Flesh.

Reaching costs 5 experiences to learn.

[Live Bait]

Very nice, I'm planing a Meket Bloodline that combines Auspex and Animalism to affect spirits so I'll reread this when I'm finalising that idea.

[Malus]

Why have an essence bargaining chip with the second ability of spiritualism if the first lets you command them? just make it a first tongue thing, and then let them deal with the spirits on their terms.

Vampires don't need a bloodline to join a pack or adquire totem dots either.

[gebbethine]

Why have an essence bargaining chip with the second ability of spiritualism if the first lets you command them? just make it a first tongue thing, and then let them deal with the spirits on their terms.

This same question could be asked of the first and second dots of Animalism itself. Besides, it's very different to be able to bargain with and/or bloodbond a spirit, than just command them to do basic things through a resisted roll.

Vampires don't need a bloodline to join a pack or adquire totem dots either.

This was written before The Pack came out, when vampires joining packs was ambiguous as to how it worked. That said, depending on what mechanics you use, you can replace the Gift with the Dead Wolf being able to keep its primary Tell and its effects (and maybe any other Tells it buys at chargen--or before Embrace) in undeath.

[Tessie]

This was written before The Pack came out, when vampires joining packs was ambiguous as to how it worked. That said, depending on what mechanics you use, you can replace the Gift with the Dead Wolf being able to keep its primary Tell and its effects (and maybe any other Tells it buys at chargen--or before Embrace) in undeath.

Tells are explicitly permanent unless the Wolf-Blooded turns into a werewolf. Any embraced Wolf-Blooded would already keep their Tells as a vampire.

[Malus]

This same question could be asked of the first and second dots of Animalism itself. Besides, it's very different to be able to bargain with and/or bloodbond a spirit, than just command them to do basic things through a resisted roll.

Can it? It's not the same being able to control a stray then being able to tell a fire spirit to dust your enemies at court or telling any spirit to discorporate itself.

This was written before The Pack came out, when vampires joining packs was ambiguous as to how it worked. That said, depending on what mechanics you use, you can replace the Gift with the Dead Wolf being able to keep its primary Tell and its effects (and maybe any other Tells it buys at chargen--or before Embrace) in undeath.

What Tessie said. Make some undead tells maybe, to pick like the Protean features. Or allow Protean to switch them.

[Elfive]

Spirit resistances can get really high at higher ranks. I can easily see the command power not working for some, so a power that lets you ask nicely instead is definitely useful.

[tsusasi]

Since when does a character need a power in order to ask someone to do something for them?

[Tessie]

Since when does a character need a power in order to ask someone to do something for them?

Since Werewolf: The Forsaken - Second Edition was released.
Page 182:
"Treat negotiations with a spirit as a Social maneuvering
action (see p. 163). Most spirits have average or hostile first
impressions with Forsaken, and require Soft Leverage in the
form of gathra to Open Doors. Unlike mortal subjects of
Social maneuvering, spirits can’t agree to deals unless they’ve
been paid — until then, the Uratha’s player doesn’t roll to
open Doors. Hard Leverage — threats of Siskur-Dah, and other
strong-arm tactics — might force a spirit to accept a proposition
after a perfunctory gift."

Essence is the most basic and common offering. Without it (or something even more important to a spirit, such as removing a higher Ranking spirit from the local politics or manage to set up new Resonant Conditions) the spirit literally can't accept what you're asking of them. They might do it anyway, but not because you asked them to it.

[Raistlin]

Why have an essence bargaining chip with the second ability of spiritualism if the first lets you command them? just make it a first tongue thing, and then let them deal with the spirits on their terms.

Vampires don't need a bloodline to join a pack or adquire totem dots either.

Spirits don´t like to be bossed around, and depending of the rank and connections of the spirit the consequences of trying can be dire.

[tsusasi]

Since Werewolf: The Forsaken - Second Edition was released.
Page 182:
"Treat negotiations with a spirit as a Social maneuvering
action (see p. 163). Most spirits have average or hostile first
impressions with Forsaken, and require Soft Leverage in the
form of gathra to Open Doors. Unlike mortal subjects of
Social maneuvering, spirits can’t agree to deals unless they’ve
been paid — until then, the Uratha’s player doesn’t roll to
open Doors. Hard Leverage — threats of Siskur-Dah, and other
strong-arm tactics — might force a spirit to accept a proposition
after a perfunctory gift."

Essence is the most basic and common offering. Without it (or something even more important to a spirit, such as removing a higher Ranking spirit from the local politics or manage to set up new Resonant Conditions) the spirit literally can't accept what you're asking of them. They might do it anyway, but not because you asked them to it.

Which only reinforces my point. You don't require special powers to ask anyone to do something.
The only thing this indicates is that werewolves (and presumably, vampires) can't skip Social Maneuvering wholesale in dealing with spirits and jump straight into pre-emptorily stacking on conditions that compel obedience without giving the spirit something of value.

[Tessie]

Which only reinforces my point. You don't require special powers to ask anyone to do something.
The only thing this indicates is that werewolves (and presumably, vampires) can't skip Social Maneuvering wholesale in dealing with spirits and jump straight into pre-emptorily stacking on conditions that compel obedience without giving the spirit something of value.

You're not reading it correctly. "Spirits can’t agree to deals unless they’ve been paid." (The "can't" is emphasised in the book.) It's not just that spirits dislike werewolves. It's that spirits are literally incapable of agreeing to deals without being payed, regardless of who's asking. The text only specifies Forsaken and Uratha because it assumes that's what you're playing.

[Pale_Crusader]

May I point out it isn't just Social Maneuvering that is required, but specifically at least some Soft Leverage (aka bribes) is required, and Hard Leverage while able to open some of the Doors, isn't able to seal the deal so to speak.

Awesome re-write of this Bloodline by the way.

[tsusasi]

You're not reading it correctly. "Spirits can’t agree to deals unless they’ve been paid." (The "can't" is emphasised in the book.) It's not just that spirits dislike werewolves. It's that spirits are literally incapable of agreeing to deals without being payed, regardless of who's asking. The text only specifies Forsaken and Uratha because it assumes that's what you're playing.

Yes, I am reading it correctly. The citation you provided explicitly cites the Social Maneuvering rules are in effect in dealing with spirits. It proceeds to add a caveat that a character can't promise the spirit something then renege after the spirit does what is asked (as vampires and werewolves are apt to do) without paying something the spirit wants first even if it's just a token. (Unless you're having spirits just wandering around the material world unchecked, some kind of token bribe is already offered in the summoning practice itself.) That does not equal "You require a special power to ask the spirit to do something." The fact that several vampire powers allow vampires to ignore social conventions and go straight to making demands and getting obedience does not mean they must disregard social conventions.

[Tessie]

Yes, I am reading it correctly. The citation you provided explicitly cites the Social Maneuvering rules are in effect in dealing with spirits. It proceeds to add a caveat that a character can't promise the spirit something then renege after the spirit does what is asked (as vampires and werewolves are apt to do) without paying something the spirit wants first even if it's just a token. (Unless you're having spirits just wandering around the material world unchecked, some kind of token bribe is already offered in the summoning practice itself.) That does not equal "You require a special power to ask the spirit to do something." The fact that several vampire powers allow vampires to ignore social conventions and go straight to making demands and getting obedience does not mean they must disregard social conventions.

As if summoning a spirit is easy. In order to be able to summon spirits routinely (or not spend weeks researching individual spirits to summon) you would need other powers. Especially across the Gauntlet, which is the only summoning that would be considered good enough for Gathra (without hard leverage, but you can't really use hard leverage during a summoning). And if you do summon spirits across the Gauntlet, you'd probably get werewolves after your hide.
I recommend reading the entire section on Gathra. The ability to give Essence to a spirit is the cornerstone in all spirit interactions that are more complicated than pointing the spirit in a direction and leting it do whatever it wants. If you want to interact with spirits without giving them Essence you're stuck doing much more difficult tasks or tasks that will take even more of your time and probably be a pain in the ass as well.
So technically you don't need that power, but it's like showing up to a store without any money. You could trade in a favour of equal value (from the spirit's perspective; not yours), but it's going to be a pain in the neck, and quite potentially dangerous for you as well.