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Willpower cost for Cruac too

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  • Willpower cost for Cruac too

    Hello. I always have believed Theban sorcery rituals are more expensive than Cruac ones (because vitae is far easier than replenish than WP), something Strix Chronicles didn't bother fixing.
    So I houseruled all rituals require a WP point in order to establish communion with the divine (whatever is God, the Crone, the Beast, etc...), plus the offering demanded in exchange (blood for Cruac, material components for Theban).
    What do you guys think? Is it balanced?

  • #2
    Personally I found Theban Sorcery to be more expensive due to the fact that they have to buy material components for almost every spell and said components are not things you can just pick up at a Walmart or local strip mall while with Cruac just snatch anyone off the street and you have what you need. Insofar as balance is concerned, I don't think it will work but my balance concerns stems from a different area. Ulltimately you are the one who is going to have to answer that. If your players and your NPCs routinely throw around Cruac more often than Theban, it will probably work as a balancing feature. If they aren't used often anyway or willpower is easy to replenish, it won't impact anything.

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    • #3
      Part of the cost for Cruac is not so much it how much it costs to use, but how much it costs to know.

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      • #4
        That is, I think the reduction in maximum humanity balances the willpower cost.

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        • #5
          I believes that Cruac is costly in the fact of how much vitae it actually costs. The price of a ritual just goes higher with the strength of the ritual while the a miracle always has the same flat cost of one willpower.

          I also typically run the sacrament as obtainable by the Sanctum itself for the more powerful or costly requirements; for the most dangerous rituals this might require justification, but the Miracle won't be outright impissible to use.

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          • #6
            Most players don´t get Cruac higher than 3, so the cost in blood or the humanity cap doesn´t hinder them a lot. Willpower, however, is near impossible to replenish unless indulging their Vices or Virtues in a meaningful way.

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            • #7
              First thing first, is the blood sorcery book used, and if then it might be worth having blood magic, either one. Second this is a thing other people can't answer really, because how often you get back willpower depends on the players and ST around each table, how often is vice and virtue played out, meaningful interactions with touchstones, surrendering in combat etc etc and how often do the group remember to give out the willpower points ( my group forgets all the time!). And more , how easy and common is Blood and Vitae in the setting / group-play, how much time is spent hunting, how easy is it to get blood and is every hunting scene played out or just a dice roll with a "successes in blood points" kinda a way. And how much time/resources is needed to get the sacraments for Theban, is it a quest, a small dice roll, or just hand-waving it... And more.

              So like using two 3 dot rituals is somewhere between really easy or extremely costly depending on play-style etc. I for one would say getting back willpower to have a ritual working is probably easier then needing more blood to sustain yourself that night. 1 or 2 extra blood for one ritual ain't such a big deal, it's like using another discipline that night. But those two 3 dot rituals, thats a dead human with everything that comes with that or an extremely long hunt for plenty of vessels to sustain all that 7 blood needed just tonight. Or she could have a scene playing out her dirge or mask, perhaps even during the nights ritual, and then hang out with one of her touchstones for one scene getting a plot hook or drama point, and the willpower points are back.

              Cruac also has that pesky humanity cost, and cap, which can be quite costly if you don't want your humanity that low. A dot of cruac is a detachment roll for humanity 4(?)

              So about balance, you need to look at your own group for it and ask yourself and discuss it with the players, how they feel about it.

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              • #8
                I'm not sure that Willpower is meant to be as hard to gain as people are making it out here.

                On average, characters should regain a point of
                Willpower every few scenes, depending on how
                easily they fulfill their Vices. They’ll be spending it
                quicker than that, but the diminishing resource
                until a character is exhausted is another part
                of the game, modeling the genre of increasingly
                tired and desperate investigators confronting
                the supernatural, making the full Willpower
                refreshes from Virtue special. A character
                shouldn’t always fulfill their Virtue in a game ses-
                sion — once every few stories is enough in big
                dramatic moments. We removed the risk limit
                from Vice to allow Storytellers to keep charac-
                ters “topped up” in service to the game. If your
                players over-spend, give them easy opportuni-
                ties to fulfill Vice. Keep the small gains trickling
                in to prevent players from sitting on Willpower
                to their characters’ detriment, and look for the
                right point to showcase Virtue.
                GMC pg. 153

                There's more to the sidebar. They talk about the design philosophy of Willpower in 2e. It's a sidebar I wish had been kept in CofD. You can also regain Willpower in scenes doing other things, whereas Vitae tends to require scenes dedicated to gathering it.
                Last edited by Maina; 08-17-2017, 06:34 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Maina View Post
                  I'm not sure that Willpower is meant to be as hard to gain as people are making it out here.
                  I agree here. My group usually has an opposite problem, not enough dice rolls as opposite to not enough willpower points

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Raistlin View Post
                    Most players don´t get Cruac higher than 3, so the cost in blood or the humanity cap doesn´t hinder them a lot. Willpower, however, is near impossible to replenish unless indulging their Vices or Virtues in a meaningful way.
                    Rules as written, you get willpower back after sleeping, plus what others posted above. Your perception of how hard willpower is to regain is off base.

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                    • #11
                      Vampires don't get Willpower back by sleeping, since they don't sleep in a way that refreshes them the way mortals to.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

                        Rules as written, you get willpower back after sleeping, plus what others posted above. Your perception of how hard willpower is to regain is off base.
                        Vampires don't get willpower back from the daysleep because it is never restful. The only ways for a vampire to get willpower back is: defending their attachment to a touchstone, their Dirge, and their Mask.

                        I believe vampire alone is this way and it was supposed to make it in the 2e vampire book, but it didn't for some reason.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nofather View Post
                          Vampires don't get Willpower back by sleeping, since they don't sleep in a way that refreshes them the way mortals to.
                          Originally posted by Ever Professional View Post

                          Vampires don't get willpower back from the daysleep because it is never restful. The only ways for a vampire to get willpower back is: defending their attachment to a touchstone, their Dirge, and their Mask.

                          I believe vampire alone is this way and it was supposed to make it in the 2e vampire book, but it didn't for some reason.
                          And since it didn't make it to the 2e Vampire book, and it wasn't included in errata, there's really nothing to indicate that vampires don't get willpower back from sleep.

                          Basically, you're citing rules that don't exist.

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                          • #14
                            The absence of rules doesn't indicate the prevelence of said rule.
                            But no, you don't get willpower from sleep as a vampire, never had. And Rose has pointed it out.

                            Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post
                            Vampires don't get Willpower back from resting by default. One of the things Willpower represents is strength of self, parallel to Humanity. You get it for affirming who you are, who you pretend to be, and what you're connected to. Being a vampire is spiritually exhausting, and you have to emphasize those things in order to regain what normal people gain from rest.

                            I say that with the following caveats:
                            • When significant downtime has passed (say, you skip a week of in-character time, or conclude a significant piece of your story and pick up later), it's reasonable to just refill everyone's Willpower, making the assumption they've been out interacting with their Anchors while off-screen.
                            • I don't think it does any harm to allow Kindred to regain Willpower from rest, it's just not the default for the reasons I expressed.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ever Professional View Post
                              I believe vampire alone is this way and it was supposed to make it in the 2e vampire book, but it didn't for some reason.
                              It was included by virtue of there not being a rule about vampires gaining Willpower through sleep. Remember, the 2E core books are stand alone and not just templates added to the GMCRU or CofD core.


                              Writer for Bloodlines: The Ageless on STV
                              Some other stuff I've done: Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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