Difficulty understanding the three aspects of the beast

[Maitrecorbo]

So first i'll go with how i understand it then you guys can tell me where and how am i wrong.

Say you get this neonate that thinks they can get snippy with the sheriff. I mean now is not the time for violence so the sheriff decides to lash out with the competitive beast to show who's the top dog here. Roll-Roll. The sheriff wins and the snappy neonate receive the competitive condition. Now the snappy neonates feels ... compelled?... encouraged?... to follow the chain of command and do what the sheriff says.
But reading the competitive condition it says: '' Your character must assert dominance and superiority.'' and this : '' As well, any rolls to tempt or coerce her into competition achieve exceptional success on three successes instead of five.''
So wait, because the sheriff won the contest, it will make the loser want to fight the winner? Like i said, i had the understanding that winning with the competitive beast placed you as higher in the food chain so to speak. Now i am afraid that my players would take this to mean they have to be more snappy (spend willpower).
Now clearly, i've misunderstood something either about how the lashing out with beasts works or why you're supposed to use it.


Also,
This led me to wonder about the use of lashing out with the three aspect of the beast both on a meta level and in fluff.

Do you see use of lashing out often in your games?
What is the purpose of these abilities on a meta level, i mean what niche do they fill in the game? (not a critique, just genuinely curious)
What about in-universe, are these powers often used, is it seen as crass or as a nice show of ones own power?

Apologies if that is a lot of questions and thank you for your answers.

[Tessie]

In our game Lashing Out only becomes a thing if you either want to break a power like Awe or Dread Presence, or if you've got the Kerberos bloodline gift to get a sweet dice bonus on relevant rolls.
But yes, two out of the three conditions works completely against the intention of Lashing Out in the first place. Only Wanton from the seductive predatory aura is a condition you'd actually want to inflict on an opponent. So no, you haven't misunderstood anything. It's a really cool concept, but someone fucked up during the development of Predatory Aura/Lashing Out

[nofather]

So wait, because the sheriff won the contest, it will make the loser want to fight the winner? Like i said, i had the understanding that winning with the competitive beast placed you as higher in the food chain so to speak. Now i am afraid that my players would take this to mean they have to be more snappy (spend willpower).

It's heavily contextual, but in this specific example, it would make the player want to prove that they're better than the sheriff. That they're more the top dog. This doesn't have to involve fighting, but you haven't really given us much of a picture. If they were investigating a murder, for instance, he would feel compelled to investigate it fully, to show that he is the superior investigator to the sheriff. He wants to one-up the sheriff (and others).

The subtext of a competitive lash out is something like, 'Do you think you can do better?' And it provokes a need in the loser to do so. This isn't one you're supposed to use with outright combat (make exceptions for masters of martial arts and sword), it should be clear that the Monstrous one is for that.

Now clearly, i've misunderstood something either about how the lashing out with beasts works or why you're supposed to use it.

Think just which ones are appropriate at certain times.

Do you see use of lashing out often in your games?
What is the purpose of these abilities on a meta level, i mean what niche do they fill in the game? (not a critique, just genuinely curious)
What about in-universe, are these powers often used, is it seen as crass or as a nice show of ones own power?

Yes.
Show of superiority that doesn't lead to violence. Losers are punished but not entirely as their Condition leads to Beat.
In-universe it's the typical goading thing, it's seen a lot among vampires (it pops up in the vampire books even, before there was technically Lashing Out). Other games have similar things but I don't think they're used nearly as much as the vampire's Predatory Aura.

[Khanwulf]

So essentially as I understand it: Monstrous beast is useful when you're going into combat as the Bestial Condition gives -2 Defense. This is enough to make a real difference in how hard you can hit them! Of course, they could decide to flee the confrontation, in which case you could go into a chase (if you catch them, you get a free attack, which could be game-over). I think of Buffy vamps flashing the monster-face for this one.

Seductive beast is most useful in feeding scenarios, though I can imagine attempts to break combat by offering an alternative to fighting. Wanton is for any indulgence, and tempts the character to excess that presumably the vampire offers. It distorts the negotiation between them in ways to be exploited.

I've had the most problems myself with the Competitive best, and appreciate nofather couching it as "goading". If the subject wants to counter-challenge they can try, but if they fail (or can't roll, as with mortals), they wander away seething in the desire to prove themselves--not necessarily over the vampire, but in general. This ups risk-taking behavior, for example. I can see it as useful during feeding as well, when the prey is among a group that needs splitting.

Other thoughts?

--Khanwulf

[Vitalis]

So first i'll go with how i understand it then you guys can tell me where and how am i wrong.

Say you get this neonate that thinks they can get snippy with the sheriff. I mean now is not the time for violence so the sheriff decides to lash out with the competitive beast to show who's the top dog here. Roll-Roll. The sheriff wins and the snappy neonate receive the competitive condition. Now the snappy neonates feels ... compelled?... encouraged?... to follow the chain of command and do what the sheriff says.
But reading the competitive condition it says: '' Your character must assert dominance and superiority.'' and this : '' As well, any rolls to tempt or coerce her into competition achieve exceptional success on three successes instead of five.''
So wait, because the sheriff won the contest, it will make the loser want to fight the winner? Like i said, i had the understanding that winning with the competitive beast placed you as higher in the food chain so to speak. Now i am afraid that my players would take this to mean they have to be more snappy (spend willpower).
Now clearly, i've misunderstood something either about how the lashing out with beasts works or why you're supposed to use it.


Also,
This led me to wonder about the use of lashing out with the three aspect of the beast both on a meta level and in fluff.

Do you see use of lashing out often in your games?
What is the purpose of these abilities on a meta level, i mean what niche do they fill in the game? (not a critique, just genuinely curious)
What about in-universe, are these powers often used, is it seen as crass or as a nice show of ones own power?

Apologies if that is a lot of questions and thank you for your answers.

Hello! I have the perfect example of this! Sometimes In my house hold I have to yell at one of my children for something. Leaving dirty dishes somewhere, or tell them to turn off the video games, whatever. So I yell at one of them, they yell back, (delightful teenagers! ) anyway. I win. So the one will immediately turn around and start yelling at the other child for the smallest things and start to boss him around to try to assert his dominance ect... I don't think he does it on purpose, but he is angry at me so he tries to take it out on his brother who had nothing to do with it.

Vampire terms: They lost with the top dog, so now they pick fights everyone around them to try to get some of that top dog feeling back.

When someone lashes out you dont have to fight back. You can back down. It invokes FLIGHT or FIGHT. if you lose or back off you still get the condition.

[Yossarian]

It is contextual, and to add a bit to that, lashing out--like many vampire abilities--is primarily for use on mortals. Making a human Competitive, for example, is just another way to draw him into your game; play another hand...but we're upping the ante. It also potentially drains him of willpower, which is really all mortals have to resist you. Making a human Bestial means she's more willing to do awful things you can hold over her head, or just forces her into fighting a fight she couldn't possibly win against you, all the better to cover you draining her. She's also a lot easier to hit. This isn't the same as Majesty or Dominate (or even Nightmare), which are more broadly powerful, but sometimes you use the wrench rather than the hammer.

Using them on vampires, apart from breaking disciplines, is more fraught. Vampires are inherently more tricky to compete with, and they're blatantly more dangerous when the beast takes over. Even making a vampire Wanton has its risks...do you really want to see what a blood sucking fiend will do when she wants for the sake of wanting?

(Maybe you do; maybe that's what you do for kicks.)

Edit: And note what Vampire itself says:

Further, a vampire can voluntarily intensify her predatory aura to elicit a reaction. Against other Kindred, this escalates the encounter, forcing fight or flight instincts. Against mortals, this asserts power and cows the lesser creatures.

[Khanwulf]

Hello! I have the perfect example of this! Sometimes In my house hold I have to yell at one of my children for something. Leaving dirty dishes somewhere, or tell them to turn off the video games, whatever. So I yell at one of them, they yell back, (delightful teenagers! ) anyway. I win. So the one will immediately turn around and start yelling at the other child for the smallest things and start to boss him around to try to assert his dominance ect... I don't think he does it on purpose, but he is angry at me so he tries to take it out on his brother who had nothing to do with it.

Vampire terms: They lost with the top dog, so now they pick fights everyone around them to try to get some of that top dog feeling back.

When someone lashes out you dont have to fight back. You can back down. It invokes FLIGHT or FIGHT. if you lose or back off you still get the condition.

You make me laugh! And: as the father of two younger males I can confirm this is totally a thing. All the more so in my case because the youngest thinks he's god-emperor. (Quote: "I like living life on my edge." Emphasis added.)

To Yossarian's point: if you use predatory aura on other vamps you run the risk of losing the challenge and receiving the condition yourself (probably bad). But! If you know your Blood Potency is stronger, then you can force them to choose whether to burn a Willpower to oppose you.

For the sake of the discuss, can we confirm if activating Predatory Aura is detectable by mortals? I assume it generally would be for other vamps, unless the activator is Ofuscated.

--Khanwulf

[Maitrecorbo]

Thanks you all for the sage advice.
I understand the situation much better now.
So in the case of my previous example something that i didn't consider is that you gain a +2 bonus on rolls that fits the aspect you brought to bear. This (more than the condition) makes more sense to me for the competitive beast being about asserting your dominance. Mind you, i think i still don't really like the competitive condition.

For the sake of the discuss, can we confirm if activating Predatory Aura is detectable by mortals? I assume it generally would be for other vamps, unless the activator is Ofuscated.

--Khanwulf

I'd assume so. The book says that activating one of the three aspect takes a recognizable appropriate action and gives the examples of ''A monstrous Beast growls, threatens, gnashes teeth, or calls to action."
Now mortal might not recognize it as a supernatural effect (at least prior to the resolution of the contest).
As for kindred i'd say that they can even recognize which aspect is being called upon with just a glance. Which is why i don't think it is that great a tool for goading since it makes it pretty obvious what your doing.

[Yossarian]

For the sake of the discuss, can we confirm if activating Predatory Aura is detectable by mortals? I assume it generally would be for other vamps, unless the activator is Ofuscated.

Generally predatory auras and the like (hunter aspects(?), nimbus, etc.) are things humans aren't aware of outside of their direct effect, other than a possible subconscious feeling. Like calls to like.

Edit: Oh, I see what you're saying. I don't think they are, in the sense that they likely don't (usually) see it as supernatural.

[nofather]

For the sake of the discuss, can we confirm if activating Predatory Aura is detectable by mortals? I assume it generally would be for other vamps, unless the activator is Ofuscated.

What do you mean by detecting?

It's a challenge. Your ears might perk up if you overheard it, as there's some gravity behind it. If you watched the vampire do it it would likely seem more threatening or enticing or something.

But it doesn't depict any particularly overt display anyways. It's not like a big shadow pops out.

[Khanwulf]

What do you mean by detecting?

It's a challenge. Your ears might perk up if you overheard it, as there's some gravity behind it. If you watched the vampire do it it would likely seem more threatening or enticing or something.

But it doesn't depict any particularly overt display anyways. It's not like a big shadow pops out.

Right. Thanks folks for the confirmation. The text seems to indicate as well that the predatory aura release of the vampire's beast can be a momentary thing: a fleeting fragment of terror that could be forgotten or overwhelmed in the human reaction. Fight like an animal or flight. Live immediately (including reproduce) or die. Dominate (someone) or accept the bottom of the pecking order in submission.

Kinda like that.

--Khanwulf

[Tabanese]

Which is why i don't think it is that great a tool for goading since it makes it pretty obvious what your doing.

Wee note but this doesn't strictly follow. Consider the sub-cultures/group dynamics that crop up around toxic masculinity where men regularly, almost reflexively, instigate a stare down, chest pushed out and such, in order to cow 'lesser' men. It is obvious but normal. That's just how it is. So in your city, you could play up vampire interaction in the same way, which to be honest, works better for stifling those at the bottom. Maybe it drops off as the Kindred fight using external power over internal power; pushing people around works on a personal level but a lawyer-like politeness and political mind work better at the corporate level. That way, you can have political intrigue at the top or in public view, and bullying at the bottom and behind closed doors.

[Maitrecorbo]

Wee note but this doesn't strictly follow. Consider the sub-cultures/group dynamics that crop up around toxic masculinity where men regularly, almost reflexively, instigate a stare down, chest pushed out and such, in order to cow 'lesser' men. It is obvious but normal. That's just how it is. So in your city, you could play up vampire interaction in the same way, which to be honest, works better for stifling those at the bottom. Maybe it drops off as the Kindred fight using external power over internal power; pushing people around works on a personal level but a lawyer-like politeness and political mind work better at the corporate level. That way, you can have political intrigue at the top or in public view, and bullying at the bottom and behind closed doors.

Fair enough. I admit that for goading i had only envisionned the one scenario where you go " I was just talking to him and he attacked me, breaching the sanctity of elysium. My what a brute". So yeah, i realised i didnt take into account that goading can take many more form.

[Tabanese]

No problem. Btw, random question: Did you post on a r/askreddit trend "What do you intentionally do 'Wrong'?" saying you don't see the point in capitalizing i's? I ask because... well you didn't in the last post or the one before that. It is not a dig. Just something I noticed and had to ask, because the coincidence would fill my little pattern seeking heart with joy.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/c...wrong/dqwplbo/

[Maitrecorbo]

No problem. Btw, random question: Did you post on a r/askreddit trend "What do you intentionally do 'Wrong'?" saying you don't see the point in capitalizing i's? I ask because... well you didn't in the last post or the one before that. It is not a dig. Just something I noticed and had to ask, because the coincidence would fill my little pattern seeking heart with joy.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/c...wrong/dqwplbo/

Lol I did not.
The only reason that I can think of that makes sense is that I am from Quebec and thus mainly speak french (which doesn't have the 'I'). I actually find it weird to capitalize letters in the middle of the sentence (I mean unless its proper noun). In the end it's just not an ingrained reflex when writing.
That reddit post made me laugh, thank you for that.