Alternate Blood Potency Increase Hack - "Family" Tree

[Gellydog]

don't know any ST who is just going to let you keep raising your Humanity for the express purpose of flushing it again in the process of creating more vampires over and over again.

What? Why not? "Humanity" is just an abstract measure of how much the vampire still "thinks like a human being." It's not like a character would think, in-universe, that they're "spending" a resource to make childer; just that creating new vampires is obviously an experience that makes it harder to relate to relate to the human mindset. If a player's out-of-character aspiration is to have lots of vampire babies, but also wants to keep spending experience (that could go to something else; it's an opportunity cost) to bring their Humanity back up and is willing to roleplay that cycle, then I don't think there's anything wrong with that?

[tsusasi]

You just answered your own question why. Humanity is an abstract concept to reflect thinking like a human being. It is not currency to be accumulated in order to buy your way out of the consequences of degenerating other human beings into bloodsucking monsters to increase your mystical power foundation over and over again.

[Vent0]

You just answered your own question why. Humanity is an abstract concept to reflect thinking like a human being. It is not currency to be accumulated in order to buy your way out of the consequences of degenerating other human beings into bloodsucking monsters to increase your mystical power foundation over and over again.

Except, you know, you are just restoring you ability to relate, from the natural consequences of the personal dehumanizing aspects of the Embrace. Same as the recovery from Humanity Breaking Points. Vampires don't get any personal power from Embracing others now, but they still do so. Those reasons remain valid.

[tsusasi]

<< Except, you know, you are just restoring you ability to relate, from the natural consequences of the personal dehumanizing aspects of the Embrace. Same as the recovery from Humanity Breaking Points. >>


Except... Except, you know, according to you, the Embrace isn't a Breaking point. And you don't learn to relate to humans by going out and turning them into monsters that are just like you.

<< Vampires don't get any personal power from Embracing others now, but they still do so. >>

Uh yeah they do. Their reasons for embracing stems from a vampire wanting to consolidate more power to themself and control over someone or something else. Whether it's lording their "innate superiority" over some hapless human as per the self-righteous proselytizing of the Sanctified and Acolytes "teaching someone a lesson" to the Invictus or Carthian embracing some employee to gain more influence over some place they are affiliated. Maybe it's to just undermine another organization or rival or simply to install a minion within into their organization to diffuse another's influence. It's all about power. Furthermore their disciplines are more effective upon those whom they share a blood tie than when used on a vampire whom they do not share a direct line.
This entire thread is a proposal of how a vampire can amass even more power from the act.

[Vent0]

<< Except, you know, you are just restoring you ability to relate, from the natural consequences of the personal dehumanizing aspects of the Embrace. Same as the recovery from Humanity Breaking Points. >>


Except... Except, you know, according to you, the Embrace isn't a Breaking point. And you don't learn to relate to humans by going out by going out and turning them into monsters that are just like you.

The Embrace isn't a Breaking Point according to the rules. You roll for Breaking Points - you don't for the Humanity Loss due to the Embrace. And nowhere am I implying you should be able to justify increasing your Humanity for performing the Embrace. You'll have to do something else for that. Same as if you get kill-happy or go hermit and lose Humanity that way (and wish to recover it).

<< Vampires don't get any personal power from Embracing others now, but they still do so. >>

Uh yeah they do. Their reasons for embracing stems from a vampire wanting to consolidate more power to themself and control over someone or something else. Whether it's lording their "innate superiority" over some hapless human as per the self-righteous proselytizing of the Sanctified and Acolytes "teaching someone a lesson" to the Invictus or Carthian embracing some employee to gain more influence over some place they are affiliated. Maybe it's to just undermine another organization or rival or simply to install a minion within into their organization to diffuse another's influence. It's all about power. Furthermore their disciplines are more effective upon those whom they share a blood tie than when used on a vampire whom they do not share a direct line.
This entire thread is a proposal of how a vampire can amass even more power from the act.

Influence based power. Which can, as demonstrated numerous times in the material, fail to materialize or bite the sire in the arse. Making another vampire is adding another predator to the area. It isn't consolidating power into themself - it is spreading it out to others. Sure, the idea is to manipulate the new vampire into being your helper/minion. But they can backstab you like every other vampire you know (Blood Sympathy working both ways means it isn't an advantage over them). They offer no real advantage compared to enlisting another neonate, if you want to create a web of influence.

I see personal power as something that is yours. Skills, Disciplines, etc.

[Live Bait]

Having read what everyone else has said I think basing your Blood Potency on the total Blood Potency of your children would be the best way to do this as it avoids having two children and infinity plus one grand kids.

[Vent0]

Having read what everyone else has said I think basing your Blood Potency on the total Blood Potency of your children would be the best way to do this as it avoids having two children and infinity plus one grand kids.

Yeah, that's fair. What would the exact math end up being, though? Part of this was for the pyramid scheme parallel and for a powerful vampire to be implicitly the head of a vast(-ish) brood.

[Live Bait]

I would start with after 5 go to 7 and then use prime numbers and see how that works. If that doesn't fit adjust till you have something that works.

[Tessie]

Prime numbers doesn't follow a smooth curve. Would be better to use something like the Fibonacci Sequence.

[Satchel]

A suggestion half-disguised as a question: Where do ghouls fit into the model of this hack?

[Vent0]

Prime numbers doesn't follow a smooth curve. Would be better to use something like the Fibonacci Sequence.

So, the Sum of the Blood Potency of Childer:

Sire Blood Potency	Additional Childe Blood Potency	Total
1	0	0
2	1	1
3	1	2
4	2	4
5	3	7
6	5	12
7	8	20
8	13	33
9	21	54
10	34	88

A suggestion half-disguised as a question: Where do ghouls fit into the model of this hack?

Well, they aren't quite Childer, so one could ignore them. They aren't feeding Vitae into the "system" (if one were looking at the Blood of a extended vampire family as one organism), so they wouldn't count that way either. They are actually leeching energy, so one actually might count them as a negative, if one wanted. As an additional Hack, for tension, one could rule that Childer can't be Blood Bound, so while they increase personal power (in Blood Potency), they represent an organizational risk; while Ghouls are loyal, but represent a drain on power and resources. Balancing their numbers would then be a factor.

But Ghouls do also represent extensions (and thus support) of the vampire's Will, perhaps as well as Childer do, if not to that degree. One could count them as a "half-point" when summing point values, or instead as an additional requirement for Tiers (instead of 1, 3, 5, go with "has Ghouls", "has Childer", "has many* of both" with the many determined by your needs).

@Satchel: Did you have your own ideas on this?

Additionally: Revenants. Easiest to count them as BP1 Childer. If using Jack's addition or requiring a dead Sire to reach a certain point, one could even structure it that one cannot Embrace or Uplift a full Kindred on their own while they still possess a Sire. You wouldn't have Grand-Childer, obviously, but Revenants could take up that role of "lowest rung on the totem pole" (Revenant -> Full Vamp -> Sireless Vamp).

[Satchel]

Well, they aren't quite Childer, so one could ignore them. They aren't feeding Vitae into the "system" (if one were looking at the Blood of a extended vampire family as one organism), so they wouldn't count that way either. They are actually leeching energy, so one actually might count them as a negative, if one wanted. As an additional Hack, for tension, one could rule that Childer can't be Blood Bound, so while they increase personal power (in Blood Potency), they represent an organizational risk; while Ghouls are loyal, but represent a drain on power and resources. Balancing their numbers would then be a factor.

But Ghouls do also represent extensions (and thus support) of the vampire's Will, perhaps as well as Childer do, if not to that degree. One could count them as a "half-point" when summing point values, or instead as an additional requirement for Tiers (instead of 1, 3, 5, go with "has Ghouls", "has Childer", "has many* of both" with the many determined by your needs).

@Satchel: Did you have your own ideas on this?

Additionally: Revenants. Easiest to count them as BP1 Childer. If using Jack's addition or requiring a dead Sire to reach a certain point, one could even structure it that one cannot Embrace or Uplift a full Kindred on their own while they still possess a Sire. You wouldn't have Grand-Childer, obviously, but Revenants could take up that role of "lowest rung on the totem pole" (Revenant -> Full Vamp -> Sireless Vamp).

My main idea (which is admittedly an extremely rough draft) would be to scale back on the permanent costs of establishing earlier levels of Blood Potency by only requiring actual childer for the higher ratings in a manner similar to how feeding restrictions are determined; the first couple of dots can be maintained through something as simple as an animal ghoul or mandragora, but the middling tiers call for at least a human ghoul to cement the breadth of your family tree, and the biggest benefit to siring childer earlier on is that they're rather more durable than the others and manage their own upkeep.

The knock-on effect of this, admittedly, is that you'd need to account for how to stay above your childer; suppose your rating counts as one greater than your strongest childe's until you fall into torpor, at which point you would have to rebuild the pyramid?

[Live Bait]

I would be inclined to allow children to overtake their sires just because it would allow for a story opitunite that otherwise wouldn't happen. Usurping your sire while he's still about has more dramatic opitunites than killing him off.

[Vent0]

I would be inclined to allow children to overtake their sires just because it would allow for a story opitunite that otherwise wouldn't happen. Usurping your sire while he's still about has more dramatic opitunites than killing him off.

True. Though there is also narrative merit in "outgrowing" one's sire and earning freedom by ending them.

[Rathamus]

Wow I love these ideas. They really play up the idea that the blood is a curse that likes to spread, as well as the treachery and paranoia of the Requiem!