Design: (1e) Virtue & Vice vs. (2e) Mask & Dirge

[DubiousRuffian]

Now you've switched back to Mask/Dirge archetypes, the very thing that Roles were supposed to replace.

Yeah...

I'm not arguing against you in favor of replacing Mask/Dirge with job. I'm arguing that Mask/Dirge could be seen as representing the way your personality is expressed in a given context, and this could be interpreted as being "your role", depending on how narrowly you want to interpret the word "role".

I'm arguing that Mask/Dirge are Roles, not archetypes. They influence play, and reflect an interplay between what you do and what you want.

Example: I don't see how the archivist couldn't have Scheming Bastard or Yuppie instead.

EDIT: Reading back over the thread, I may have misreadMaitrecorbo's post and just created a problem out of nothing. I feel like the whole Role idea isn't bad, as long as you allow Role to not just be Job. Like, I'd be fine with someone using "Good Boss" or "Wage Slave", but maybe not "Disgruntled Rep" because it's more covered by the Concept Anchor.

[Heavy Arms]

It feels like you're making "Roles" really just be, "the specific way my character is currently embodying an archetype."

Which... I don't know... feels like overdoing it? Like, "Bad Boss," seems like it should emerge out of the Authoritarian archetype with everything else in your concept, not need to be specified like that. It don't see how it's any different from "Disgruntled Rep."

[Maitrecorbo]

My thing was really more about the part you take in mortal society (and effort to hide what you really are) and the part you take in kindred society. You regain WP by being an archivist for the lancea sanctum because it reinforce that you are part of kindred society.
Again im tailoring this to what i know my players (and me) will enjoy.

[DubiousRuffian]

It feels like you're making "Roles" really just be, "the specific way my character is currently embodying an archetype."

Which... I don't know... feels like overdoing it?

I'm pretty against archetypes on just.... aesthetic grounds, so I'm not sure how much of my disagreement is just a knee-jerk reaction to the word itself or what... But you're probably right that I am overdoing it. But this is my thought process:

• The point of the Anchor is to foreground these two lives you live, which may occasionally clash or cause complications.
• It does this by incentivizing the pursuit of characteristic actions in a variety of relevant situations.
• The incentive is Willpower, so the incentive is for the character rather than the player, and the character finds the action to be engergizing (I doubt a Rebel necessarily enjoys protesting injustice).
• Your character is also incentivized to pursue characteristic actions in ways that may cause problems (breaking points, risking final death, etc.)
• The incentives to act characteristically, despite high risk, seems to be an incentive for players rather than just characters. The player is incentivized to not metagame around problems.

So whatever falls under the category of Mask/Dirge/Role will need to fill a number of functions.

1. Communicate a motivation
2. Communicate a type of action that is available in a variety of situations.
3. Guide consistent characterization/play despite high risks.

I would accept "Good Boss" if being a good boss is something that the character identifies with as an end rather than a means: A Good Boss goes to bed on time to set a good example and be at the office early, reads about better management techniques on their off time, maybe takes a pay cut for their employees. A Good Boss does these things because they want to be a good boss, not because they want approval or are a Conformist, or have a wider commitment to being a Pillar of Society

This raises the question of how the Mask/Dirge/Role is different than Virtue/Vice. Pillar of Society sounds pretty close to a Reliable Virtue. Maybe it has something to do with genre constraints (which is where we get archetypes) or maybe it has something to do with the fact that Virtue/Vice could apply in all contexts, while Mask/Dirge/Role should apply in many-but-not all contexts.



Side note I wouldn't accept "Bad Boss". To paraphrase Tolstoy "All good boss's are alike; each bad boss is bad in its own way." Bad Boss isn't action guiding enough, and "Disgruntled Rep" fails to communicate a motivation.