About Majesty and being aware of it

[Undead rabbit]

Couple of questions about Majesty.

Let's say a vampire used Confidant or Loyalty on me


1) If a vampire used Majesty on me, have I still enough free will to use Majesty or Dominate on him?

2) While the Condition's Resolution will surely make me aware that something was off, how can I realize that I am a victim of Majesty without suffering an important perso al sacrifice?

3) If the Charmed and Enthralled Conditions ends because they reach their natural time limit (so no true mechanical resolution) should I bee aware of what happened before?

[tsusasi]

1. Yes your character does. In fact, if your character possesses Majesty, they are likely to be aware when someone else is using it. Majesty is a narcissist's wet dream and when you're used to being the center of attention (because your character uses it) only to have it snatched from you and immediately know who took center stage, it's not hard to figure out. One absolutely can use Dominate on someone even after being subjected to Majesty. What better way to ensure that attention you suddenly desire from the individual in question becomes yours than to Dominate them into proving they're worth your attention or ordering potential rivals away. (Ie. You better be sure you really want the undivided attention of someone capable of making you their bitch and erasing memories)
2. I would argue that unless the Majesty user asked your character specifically for something, your character hasn't been victimized by it. Alternatively, if your character is known to be a brutish thug or unreasonable prick, judicious use of Majesty can be construed as a defensive tactic.
3. There was a mechanical resolution when the conditions expire (time limit) the mechanics simply don't "reward" you for it. And yes, your character is completely aware, unlike Dominate, where victims don't clearly remember what they did while Mesmerized and carrying out orders, victims of Majesty retain full memory of that time. Your character's reaction should be tailored to in character responses in accordance to what was asked.

[maekkel]

1) This can be very debateable, when your character is already in these conditions. As your character did not fight back or recognize the "Awe" effect before.
Charmed: You want to make your best friend happy. Also you tend to believe anythign they say and have it even harder to gauge their true intentions. (This is already a roll penalized by Majesty-Dots. Using supernatural means to uncover the truth is a Clash of Wills). Using Majesty or Dominate over them, thus is hardly something you want to do to "a friend you want to help".
Loyalty is even worse: "A victim will do absolutly everything for them. and just thinking about crossing the vampire is traumatic."

Also I would not allow a personality disorder like Narcissism to be a "merit" in these conditions. I´d rather say it feeds the narcicism: "Oh they are paying attention to me! That feels great. i like attention. Oh they look sad, when i don´t lend my car keys? Of course I give them mine! They like me! And Iike them when they like me! This means I´m good person and not a mediocre piece of sh**!"

2) That is the point with a resultion: You snapped out of it, It did not fade away - maybe coterie members kann help your character sort out their feelings.

3) As I said before: Was maybe you character loyal before? With Loyality it´s more obvious that something was off. But "Charmed" is sneakier, I´d also would say it depends what happend.

I´d normally don´t let anyone trick out of a power, without outside help, when they lost their resistance before.
As the Basis for everything is awe. You have to shut it out before the Emotion deepens.

Questions: What was your Characters predisposition to the Character inflicting these conditions onto you? Does your Character really now? Did you try to "Lash Out" against the Awe that initiated it? Did your character experience these powers before or is capable of these powers?

[DubiousRuffian]

1. Majesty doesn't directly affect your will. It affects your attitudes and desires. So I'd definitely say that you could use disciplines on the person using Majesty on you, but it's going to be very context specific. I don't think it's unlikely that you'd use Majesty back though. If you use Green Eyes to make me jealous of someone else, I might Awe you to get your attention again. The sense I got from Clanbook Daeva is that this sort of thing isn't uncommon, and is part of why they're so gross and incestuous.

2. Whether you realize it or not, unless you hit something like the Resolution, you probably don't care.

Here's an excerpt from one of the fiction books:

“I’ve really made a hash of it, haven’t I?”
Poor bastard. Yeah, he has, but what the hell? I can give the poor dork a break.
(I know what he’s doing, of course. He’s working the blood, playing “I’m gonna make you love me.” But I don’t much care. It’s kind of flattering. At least he’s smart enough to know he’s better off with me liking him.)

Otherwise, again, it's going to be very context specific. Like, are you normally very reserved, and suddenly this Daeva is getting you to do crazy shit? Maybe make a roll (Wits + Occult or Int + Blood Potency maybe?). But I think that Rose mentioned in one of these Majesty threads that you can Lash Out by reflex. As in, the Beast realizes something is up, and acts to protect you. I know there's an example from the Mekhet CB where this happens. I'd probably only really use this option with PCs and more dangerous NPCs.

3. Probably going to depend on how clever the character is, and how in character your actions were, and how suspicious you were to begin with. Like, if they keep getting you to give them your paycheck, you're probably going to wise up or start avoiding avoiding them. No matter how much you think you like them, giving away your paycheck will probably become a breaking point.

[maekkel]

But I think that Rose mentioned in one of these Majesty threads that you can Lash Out by reflex. As in, the Beast realizes something is up, and acts to protect you. I know there's an example from the Mekhet CB where this happens. I'd probably only really use this option with PCs and more dangerous NPCs.

3. Probably going to depend on how clever the character is, and how in character your actions were, and how suspicious you were to begin with. Like, if they keep getting you to give them your paycheck, you're probably going to wise up or start avoiding avoiding them. No matter how much you think you like them, giving away your paycheck will probably become a breaking point.

That was exactly my point. In the write up of "Awe" it´s written that you can lash out with the Beast to try to shut down Awe on. But to be charmed or enthralled is the next step... which normally means that you did not (succesfully) fight the Awe to begin with.

[DubiousRuffian]

Ah, I was assuming that you meant that if the character suspects, they can lash out, while I'm saying (basically) that if the player suspects, they can kind of meta and blame it on the beast.

But yeah, once you're up to the higher levels of Majesty, I don't think it even matters if you do realize you're being messed with. You probably assume it's not that much or not that bad, and just go with it. It's not until you do something completely out of character that you realize just how deeply they were affecting you.

[maekkel]

I agree that Lasingout is (normally) a player decision not a character decision. Like allmost all Aura action.
I see it as risk taken by the player if that "charming daeva" comes along. Are they just charming? Or is that daeva already "getting into my feels?" or is it the beast subconciously registering that someone wants to make them beta? Thus the player lets the character lash out with the beast. The same that you normally can always use WP to power a resitance attribute - even when the character does not suspect anything.

[Griautis]

Except that lashing out always has a physical component to it, be it a smirk, or a growl or something. As such, it's a far stretch to claim it's a player choice, without character input.

[DubiousRuffian]

The character's body can do plenty of things without the character knowing everything about what's happening.

The example from CB Mekhet has a Mage attempting to influence Francis' emotions. The narrative describes it as her suddenly going cold and blank when her beast takes over. She tilts her head and gives a creepy smile and says something like "you can't make me like you."

So there the beast takes over really blatantly. But I could see a plausible situation where you use Awe on me, and I'm very attracted to you, and without thinking about it I smile my sexiest smile and lash out with Seductive. I might not have meant to lash out, and was going to smile anyway, but the Beast gave my action a little extra oomph, and now suddenly I don't think you're as cool as you seemed a second ago.

[Marcus]

I'm with Gratius here.

1. You can choose which Beast to use
2. Not everyone is aware if someone is using awe or he's just particularly charming.

The first point imply that the Beast response is a premeditated act, not only an Awe stimulated smile which is subtely taking over.
The 2nd point, in my opinion, imply a kind of risk taken by the player and character, as lashing out against someone who is not doing any particular trick can lead to consequences. Hence I rule it as a premeditated character action (and risk).

[DubiousRuffian]

I dunno.

I'm not sure it makes much of a difference for this, but I think a character who Lashes Out at someone might describe it similarly to how you might when you unconsciously pick up on something that makes you uncomfortable. Like, you don't know what it is about the dude, but you don't trust him (or insult him). Similarly, you don't know why, but you just lashed out by reflex.

I don't think it's an entirely unconscious process, or that the Beast is entirely partitioned off from the character's mind. But I think, in the cases where the player suspects disciplines at play but the character might not, that's how it'd be described in-game.

Like, say someone Awes you, and you lash out with Bestial, and they respond with Seductive and they win. What are you going to think about your behavior? I don't think the character would be like "Man, my emotions are all over the place today. Guess I'll just go with them."

[tsusasi]

Predatory Auras cost willpower to activate so it's not subconscious. And if it subconsciously fires off at the proximity of every vampire in anticipation of Nightmare, Majesty, Obfuscate or Predatory Aura manipulation, (which is what many people were bitching and whining about regarding Predator's Taint) then willpower would either be nonexistent or make having Obfuscate 1 mandatory just to avoid hemorrhaging willpower just to hunt.

[Griautis]

If you're really paranoid about people using majesty/nightmare on you, learn Auspex 2 and check everyone for free if you should lash out.
Otherwise, figure out who your friends are, also lash out at people who are known to use Majesty on others.
A good daeva, will not want to get the reputation of someone who throws Majesty nilly willy

[Graylion]

I want to make sure I understand something you have two types of predatory aura interactions

Vampire lashing out (Predatory Aura) vs vampire defending (Predatory Aura), winner sets the condition

Vampire lashing out (Predatory Aura) vs vampire (Discipline)

Wining either breaks the auras affect on you or you fail and succumb to the aura. I did not realize there was a condition involved in PA vs Discipline

What is an example dice off of both please

[Marcus]

I want to make sure I understand something you have two types of predatory aura interactions

Vampire lashing out (Predatory Aura) vs vampire defending (Predatory Aura), winner sets the condition

Vampire lashing out (Predatory Aura) vs vampire (Discipline)

Wining either breaks the auras affect on you or you fail and succumb to the aura. I did not realize there was a condition involved in PA vs Discipline

What is an example dice off of both please

No, the second is still an aura vs aura.
Someone is using awe, you think it should be that and decide to lash out. Then either the Awe user respond with his Aura or not. If you win the Aura roll you are immune to Awe.