[Homebrew] Mystery of the Devourer

[DarTarel]

Hey all, putting together a homebrew mystery for an Ordo heavy 2e game I'm running. I think it could use some improving and would appreciate any constructive input people are willing to offer.

If you're one of my players(and you'll know me by my user name) then this thread is not for you. AVERT THINE EYES NEONATES!


Now, the mystery in question.


Mystery of the Devourer

• * Adaptive Digestion: The dragon gains a number of dots in the Unnatural Affinity merit equal to their dots in this coil. These dots are in addition to any they may already have in the merit and can allow the dragon to have up to 10 total dots said merit. Additionally the dragon no longer needs to activate Blush of Life to keep mortal food down, though they still gain no nourishment from it.
• ** The Spice of Life: When a dragon at this stage activates Blush of Life they are able to taste and enjoy mortal food. Additionally up to once per night the dragon may gain the equivalent of one point of vitae up to their normal maximum for consuming a mortal meal; if unspent this vitae fades at dawn. If the dragon makes a regular habit of consuming a variety of human food each night while under the effect of Blush of Life they may, at the ST discretion, use this daily meal ritual as a limited touchstone.
• *** Drink the Torrent: The dragon may consume an amount of vitae each turn equal to their dots in this coil. This includes when feeding aggressively up to a limit of the lethal damage inflicted by the bite.
• **** Sanguine Feast: In any scene where the dragon consumes 2 or more points of vitae they gain an extra 1 point for every 2 points consumed. In addition the dragon is able to store an amount of extra vitae beyond their normal limits equal to their dots in this coil. While so glutted the kindred gains +2 dice on any check to avoid frenzy as the beast becomes lethargically satisfied. This extra vitae fades at a rate of 1 per dawn in addition to any normal expenditure.
• ***** All Consuming: The dragon is now able to feed as if their blood potency were one regardless of what it actually is.

Scales of the Devourer:

Forbidden Fruit(The Spice of Life): By boiling a piece of fresh fruit in a mixture of kindred blood worth 2 vitae, salt, and sugar for one hour the dragon may imbue the fruit with the properties of vitae. The fruit, when consumed, provides the same effects of consuming 1 point of kindred vitae including establishing blood bonds and inflicting vitae addiction. The fruit stays fresh and retains this property for 1 month, after which it quickly putrefies, turning to rot in a matter of hours.



Too strong, too weak, doesn't do enough, does to much, has dumb names....Whatever you can think of that might make it better, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[Stupid Loserman]

Drink the Torrent: I would personally throw this straight down to the first dot, though I would listen to others' input since I haven't had much direct experience with fights involving aggressive feeding. It's a quite good option in a fight (and a Discipline dot ought to mean something), but it doesn't directly increase your damage done. I haven't seen many situations where feeding outside combat bites has seriously depended upon per-turn rate. It may be significantly more useful against other vampires, as it simultaneously fills your pool and empties theirs. Perhaps against vampires it might merely increase your per-turn feeding cap by dots of the Coil, still limited to the maximum of your lethal damage bitten. Unsure.

The reason I throw it to the bottom isn't just balance, though. It's also, thematically, the most core link between this Coil and the Curse. This is the most "vampire" power in the Coil. Coils start at the heart of "vampire" and spiral outward to farther reaches.

Suggested name: Drink Deep.

I may come back later with further thoughts on Sanguine Feast and what I'd do with it. Bottom line: it's a perpetual motion machine of Vitae, and while that isn't actually as broken as it sounds due to the Vinculum, it's not good for the themes of what Vitae is. Vitae isn't just blood. It's blood that you hurt something to get.

[moonwhisper]

Mystery of the Devourer

• * Adaptive Digestion: The dragon gains a number of dots in the Unnatural Affinity merit equal to their dots in this coil. These dots are in addition to any they may already have in the merit and can allow the dragon to have up to 10 total dots said merit. Additionally the dragon no longer needs to activate Blush of Life to keep mortal food down, though they still gain no nourishment from it.
• ** The Spice of Life: When a dragon at this stage activates Blush of Life they are able to taste and enjoy mortal food. Additionally up to once per night the dragon may gain the equivalent of one point of vitae up to their normal maximum for consuming a mortal meal; if unspent this vitae fades at dawn. If the dragon makes a regular habit of consuming a variety of human food each night while under the effect of Blush of Life they may, at the ST discretion, use this daily meal ritual as a limited touchstone.
• *** Drink the Torrent: The dragon may consume an amount of vitae each turn equal to their dots in this coil. This includes when feeding aggressively up to a limit of the lethal damage inflicted by the bite.
• **** Sanguine Feast: In any scene where the dragon consumes 2 or more points of vitae they gain an extra 1 point for every 2 points consumed. In addition the dragon is able to store an amount of extra vitae beyond their normal limits equal to their dots in this coil. While so glutted the kindred gains +2 dice on any check to avoid frenzy as the beast becomes lethargically satisfied. This extra vitae fades at a rate of 1 per dawn in addition to any normal expenditure.
• ***** All Consuming: The dragon is now able to feed as if their blood potency were one regardless of what it actually is.

Scales of the Devourer:

Forbidden Fruit(The Spice of Life): By boiling a piece of fresh fruit in a mixture of kindred blood worth 2 vitae, salt, and sugar for one hour the dragon may imbue the fruit with the properties of vitae. The fruit, when consumed, provides the same effects of consuming 1 point of kindred vitae including establishing blood bonds and inflicting vitae addiction. The fruit stays fresh and retains this property for 1 month, after which it quickly putrefies, turning to rot in a matter of hours.

I get that the theme of this Coil is about feeding, but it feels like you're mixing two different concepts: gaining sustenance from mortal food, and increasing the nourishment gained from blood.
I think it would be best to choose one direction and stick with it. Among the two, personally I would suggest focusing on the mortal food. It's more original and more in line with the Order's philosophy of overcoming the limitations of vampiric condition.

It would help if you added a bit more fluff and lore about this Coil: what is its purpose? What aspect of vampiric nature its practitioners are attempting to trascend?

Also, what do you mean by "limited touchstone"? I understand the idea behind it and what you're aiming at, but it should be explicitly explained, also rules-wise. E.g. each night that the character consumes human food under the effect of Blush of Life she gains +1 to Humanity loss rolls. Or even better, you could put it on a dot level of its own and say the character gains an extra full Touchstone.

Really like the Forbidden Fruit idea, it reminds me of the "bloodroot" in Changeling which was a Goblin Fruit specifically meant for vampires.

Vitae isn't just blood. It's blood that you hurt something to get.

Well, technically you can gain a bit of Vitae from plasma bags, but I get your point. You gain less nourishment from it because it's less resonant with the predatory nature of the Beast.

[Horodrigo]

Too strong, too weak, doesn't do enough, does to much, has dumb names....Whatever you can think of that might make it better, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I think that some explanations are needed about some dots.

I observed the follow:
- The difference between a normal touchstone and a limited touchstone is not explained. (ruleswise)
- Drink the Torrent can cause death in a single turn for most mortals, if the vampire scores 3 sucesses, the mortal will take 6 lethal damage(3 from the damage and 3 from the blood loss), is that intended?
- Unnatural affinity is rendered obsolet when at 5-dots on this coil you can feed even from animals without limitation, since it only gives you the possibility of feeding from other supernatural as if they were kindred.
- Theres not much explanation about why the vampire gains unnatural affinity at every dot, this Coil seems about feeding and trying to eat mortal food, and not about hunting different supernatural and tasting their blood.
- Does Sanguine Feast leads to infinite blood supply between 2 members who have this coil and drink from each other?

[DarTarel]

Thanks for all the input. So, I apologize if some of this is mildly incoherent, posting this when I should already be asleep.

Drink the Torrent: I would personally throw this straight down to the first dot, though I would listen to others' input since I haven't had much direct experience with fights involving aggressive feeding. It's a quite good option in a fight (and a Discipline dot ought to mean something), but it doesn't directly increase your damage done. I haven't seen many situations where feeding outside combat bites has seriously depended upon per-turn rate. It may be significantly more useful against other vampires, as it simultaneously fills your pool and empties theirs. Perhaps against vampires it might merely increase your per-turn feeding cap by dots of the Coil, still limited to the maximum of your lethal damage bitten. Unsure.

The reason I throw it to the bottom isn't just balance, though. It's also, thematically, the most core link between this Coil and the Curse. This is the most "vampire" power in the Coil. Coils start at the heart of "vampire" and spiral outward to farther reaches.

Suggested name: Drink Deep.

I may come back later with further thoughts on Sanguine Feast and what I'd do with it. Bottom line: it's a perpetual motion machine of Vitae, and while that isn't actually as broken as it sounds due to the Vinculum, it's not good for the themes of what Vitae is. Vitae isn't just blood. It's blood that you hurt something to get.

First, I like your name way more and will be changing the coil to that. Second, questions about the theme, The idea is to lean in to the apex predator/top of the food chain aspect. The vampire, despite being a scary effective hunter, is limited by a strict dietary restriction, unlike the inferior humans who can eat just about anything. A trait that has allowed them to become dominant. So the dragon should likewise be able to pull the 'everything you can do I can do better'. At least that's the idea. The general order and style for the abilities was loosely modeled off the Ascendant coil.

Starting with Drink Deep: I had misremembered how the vitae gain affected the target, so the easy kill on mortals was not intended. Leaves me conflicted on what to do with it. If I nerf it then it does fit nicely in the 1 dot slot. If I don't it feels appropriately strong for a 3 or even a 4 dot power(attacking with teeth is usually pretty suboptimal so this would make the Devourer's bite something to be feared.) I'll have to give that one more thought.

Sanguine Feast: unlimited blood problem, yeah, holdover from it's source of inspiration(efficient digestion-vtm). I do want to keep it in some regard, but I think it could do with a nerf. First idea of my sleep deprived mind is to limit the bonus vitae to feeding from humans or, alternatively, non-kindred. Both would take care of the infinite blood exploit, but the human only doesn't feel like it makes thematic sense.

All Consuming: at least in regards to the unnatural affinity the idea of having both is that it's implied in the book that without UA you CAN'T feed off other supernaturals. While the main advantage of doing so is to bypass the feeding restrictions of higher Blood Potency it also represents the dragons development as the ultimate predator. at least that was the reasoning behind how those were set up originally. I think the coil could be nerfed slightly to instead say "The dragon is treated as having a blood potency of 5 less for purposes of feeding restrictions." but that would only affect BP 10 vampires, so it doesn't really do much. ...I fee like I've got another idea floating around but too tired to express it atm.

Touchstone/limited touchstone: should have explained this better...or at all. Basically my thinking is that a touchstone should be vulnerable. It needs to be something the Vampire needs to protect. While this could apply to the meal they're eating(which, now that I think about it could work) It seems a bit too easy to compensate for. The idea is that this routine combined with a variety of flavors keeps the kindred grounded with their mortal life, but how does one have a meaningful interaction with ones dinner? Does missing a meal for a night cause a breaking point? How long can you fail to have your meal before the touchstone is considered lost? The thing about all of these questions is that I feel like they should be hashed out with a players ST more than they should be codified as hard and fast rules, you know?

I'll put out an update with fluff in the next couple of days when I'm properly rested. I think I touched on all the major questions brought up so far, but if I missed any let me know.


P.S. (Blood root is absolutely part of the inspiration for the scale. Glad you like it.)

[Horodrigo]

Starting with Drink Deep: I had misremembered how the vitae gain affected the target, so the easy kill on mortals was not intended. Leaves me conflicted on what to do with it. If I nerf it then it does fit nicely in the 1 dot slot. If I don't it feels appropriately strong for a 3 or even a 4 dot power(attacking with teeth is usually pretty suboptimal so this would make the Devourer's bite something to be feared.) I'll have to give that one more thought.

There's a combat style that uses bite pretty efficiently in Hurt Locker, but I'll not making cases in favor or against nerfing damage and stuff.
My suggestion would be allowing the dragon to store more Vitae than his Blood Potency allows.

Sanguine Feast: unlimited blood problem, yeah, holdover from it's source of inspiration(efficient digestion-vtm). I do want to keep it in some regard, but I think it could do with a nerf. First idea of my sleep deprived mind is to limit the bonus vitae to feeding from humans or, alternatively, non-kindred. Both would take care of the infinite blood exploit, but the human only doesn't feel like it makes thematic sense.

I don't see many problems here. The old Coil of Blood from VtR1ed has the same issue and they turned it into a feature. If you can, grab the Covenant Ordo Dracul book from 1st edition and search for Hungarian Marriages.

All Consuming: at least in regards to the unnatural affinity the idea of having both is that it's implied in the book that without UA you CAN'T feed off other supernaturals. While the main advantage of doing so is to bypass the feeding restrictions of higher Blood Potency it also represents the dragons development as the ultimate predator. at least that was the reasoning behind how those were set up originally. I think the coil could be nerfed slightly to instead say "The dragon is treated as having a blood potency of 5 less for purposes of feeding restrictions." but that would only affect BP 10 vampires, so it doesn't really do much. ...I fee like I've got another idea floating around but too tired to express it atm.

There's already a scale that allows the Dragon to feed ignoring some of his BP restrictions, its on page 159 from VtR 2ed - Sanguinary Invigaration.
About the UA merit, it specifically says that you still need other methods for hunting ephemeral things like ghosts and spirits. All consuming could allow the Vampire to sink his fangs in everything, Ignoring natural armor from changeling kiths, demonic manifestations, supernal magic armor, etc. Affecting even ephemeral beings that the dragon is capable of perceiving and stuff.
Suggestion:
All Consuming (•••••)
The Dragon knows how to sate his hunger by any means necessary, and very little can stop him from acomplishing his will. His fangs are treated as a bane that causes lethal damage on ephemeral creatures and are capable of affecting them even when they are in Twilight. Finally, even supernatural powers have trouble when trying to shield against the Dragons fangs, generating a Clash of Wills, if the dragon wins, the supernatural resistance to damage does not apply against his fangs.

Touchstone/limited touchstone: should have explained this better...or at all. Basically my thinking is that a touchstone should be vulnerable. It needs to be something the Vampire needs to protect. While this could apply to the meal they're eating(which, now that I think about it could work) It seems a bit too easy to compensate for. The idea is that this routine combined with a variety of flavors keeps the kindred grounded with their mortal life, but how does one have a meaningful interaction with ones dinner? Does missing a meal for a night cause a breaking point? How long can you fail to have your meal before the touchstone is considered lost? The thing about all of these questions is that I feel like they should be hashed out with a players ST more than they should be codified as hard and fast rules, you know?

There's a merit on Thousand Years of Night that allows kindred to have places as touchstones, you could adapt that. Like, using food as a touchstone only gives you +1 die on Detachment rolls, cause it's way easier to maintain a touchstone that's just a few bucks in a restaurant or gas station.


---------

Now, about other things, have you planned any Scales? I myself like more the mechanical aspects of things, but from my reading on the book and the forum, the development of Scales seems like really important to the Ordo, specially when trying to create new Coils. When I developed my newest Homebrew, the Coil of the Primal Blood, I made several alterations to some levels based on what Scales could be made on the learning process and on the pinnacle of the Coil.

[Excess]

Hey all, putting together a homebrew mystery for an Ordo heavy 2e game I'm running. I think it could use some improving and would appreciate any constructive input people are willing to offer.

If you're one of my players(and you'll know me by my user name) then this thread is not for you. AVERT THINE EYES NEONATES!


Now, the mystery in question.


Mystery of the Devourer

• * Adaptive Digestion: The dragon gains a number of dots in the Unnatural Affinity merit equal to their dots in this coil. These dots are in addition to any they may already have in the merit and can allow the dragon to have up to 10 total dots said merit. Additionally the dragon no longer needs to activate Blush of Life to keep mortal food down, though they still gain no nourishment from it.
• ** The Spice of Life: When a dragon at this stage activates Blush of Life they are able to taste and enjoy mortal food. Additionally up to once per night the dragon may gain the equivalent of one point of vitae up to their normal maximum for consuming a mortal meal; if unspent this vitae fades at dawn. If the dragon makes a regular habit of consuming a variety of human food each night while under the effect of Blush of Life they may, at the ST discretion, use this daily meal ritual as a limited touchstone.
• *** Drink the Torrent: The dragon may consume an amount of vitae each turn equal to their dots in this coil. This includes when feeding aggressively up to a limit of the lethal damage inflicted by the bite.
• **** Sanguine Feast: In any scene where the dragon consumes 2 or more points of vitae they gain an extra 1 point for every 2 points consumed. In addition the dragon is able to store an amount of extra vitae beyond their normal limits equal to their dots in this coil. While so glutted the kindred gains +2 dice on any check to avoid frenzy as the beast becomes lethargically satisfied. This extra vitae fades at a rate of 1 per dawn in addition to any normal expenditure.
• ***** All Consuming: The dragon is now able to feed as if their blood potency were one regardless of what it actually is.

Scales of the Devourer:

Forbidden Fruit(The Spice of Life): By boiling a piece of fresh fruit in a mixture of kindred blood worth 2 vitae, salt, and sugar for one hour the dragon may imbue the fruit with the properties of vitae. The fruit, when consumed, provides the same effects of consuming 1 point of kindred vitae including establishing blood bonds and inflicting vitae addiction. The fruit stays fresh and retains this property for 1 month, after which it quickly putrefies, turning to rot in a matter of hours.



Too strong, too weak, doesn't do enough, does to much, has dumb names....Whatever you can think of that might make it better, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

The fifth dot alone justifies the entire coil.

[DarTarel]

Thanks for the additional input, sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this. Life has been unkind to my free time lately.

Here is an updated write up using many of the suggestions posted here. Apologies in advance for the general lack of flavor text.


Mystery of the Devourer

• * Adaptive Digestion: The dragon gains a number of dots in the Unnatural Affinity merit equal to their dots in this coil. These dots are in addition to any they may already have in the merit and can allow the dragon to have up to 10 total dots of said merit. Additionally the dragon no longer needs to activate Blush of Life to keep mortal food down, though they still gain no nourishment from it.
• ** The Spice of Life: When a dragon at this stage activates Blush of Life they are able to taste and enjoy mortal food. Additionally up to once per night the dragon may gain the equivalent of one point of vitae up to their normal maximum for consuming a mortal meal; if unspent this vitae fades at dawn. If the dragon makes a regular habit of consuming a variety of human food every night for one full week while under the effect of Blush of Life they gain a +1 dice bonus to any detachment rolls so long as they continue to maintain the habit on a nightly basis.
• *** Drink Deep: Any time the Dragon feeds they may attempt to consume extra vitae from their victim by attempting a clash of wills. If the dragon succeeds they may consume an additional amount of vitae up to their dots in this coil in that turn.
• **** Sanguine Feast: In any scene where the dragon consumes 2 or more points of vitae they gain an extra 1 point for every 2 points consumed. In addition the dragon is able to store an amount of extra vitae beyond their normal limits equal to their dots in this coil. While so glutted the kindred gains +2 dice on any check to avoid frenzy as the beast becomes lethargically satisfied. This extra vitae fades at a rate of 1 per dawn in addition to any normal expenditure.
• ***** All Consuming: The dragon is now a true apex predator. Their fangs are the ultimate tool for consumption and all are prey before them. The dragon's fangs are treated as a bane that causes lethal damage on ephemeral creatures and are capable of affecting them even when they are in Twilight. If the dragon deals damage with their fangs in this manor they may feed as though their target is corporeal. Even other supernatural creatures have trouble when trying to resist the dragons fangs. The dragon's bite now ignores 2 points of armor from all sources including supernatural ones.

Scales of the Devourer:

Forbidden Fruit(The Spice of Life): By boiling a piece of fresh fruit in a mixture of kindred blood worth 2 vitae, salt, and sugar for one hour the dragon may imbue the fruit with the properties of vitae. The fruit, when consumed, provides the same effects of consuming 1 point of kindred vitae including establishing blood bonds and inflicting vitae addiction. The fruit stays fresh and retains this property for 1 month, after which it quickly putrefies, turning to rot in a matter of hours.

[moonwhisper]

[*]** The Spice of Life: When a dragon at this stage activates Blush of Life they are able to taste and enjoy mortal food. Additionally up to once per night the dragon may gain the equivalent of one point of vitae up to their normal maximum for consuming a mortal meal; if unspent this vitae fades at dawn. If the dragon makes a regular habit of consuming a variety of human food every night for one full week while under the effect of Blush of Life they gain a +1 dice bonus to any detachment rolls so long as they continue to maintain the habit on a nightly basis.

Wait, isn't digesting mortal food already a basic use of Blush of Life?
Also, you need to spend Vitae to activate Blush of Life in order to consume mortal food, so gaining Vitae once per night by eating mortal meals seems pointless; the only effective benefit would be gaining the +1 to detachement rolls.

Wouldn't it make more sense to say that a dragon at this stage doesn't need to activate Blush of Life to digest mortal food anymore, and additionally can gain Vitae once per night from consuming meals?

Also, what do you mean by "up to their normal maximum"?

[Satchel]

Also, what do you mean by "up to their normal maximum"?

Storage. A BP1 vampire with no Vitae can gain up to ten Vitae from a single source before they have to spend some of it to make room for more, and that number goes down the more Vitae you already have. If you have as much Vitae as you can hold, Spice of Life won't let you get more.

[Master Aquatosic]

So does mortal food include plant and fungal matter? Or should they restricted to meat?

[DarTarel]

Wait, isn't digesting mortal food already a basic use of Blush of Life?
Also, you need to spend Vitae to activate Blush of Life in order to consume mortal food, so gaining Vitae once per night by eating mortal meals seems pointless; the only effective benefit would be gaining the +1 to detachement rolls.

Wouldn't it make more sense to say that a dragon at this stage doesn't need to activate Blush of Life to digest mortal food anymore, and additionally can gain Vitae once per night from consuming meals?

Also, what do you mean by "up to their normal maximum"?

Blush of Life only lets you not immediately vomit food back up in a bloody mess. It expressly says you still need to upchuck it later in the night.
First level lets you consume food without having to activate blush of life. Level two expands that so that the vampire's body can supernaturally process the food to a limited degree(gaining a temp vitae).
So yes, it does make sense to say that, because that's what's being said.
And yes, like Satchel said, 'normal maximum' is the vampires maximum vitae storage based on blood potency.

So does mortal food include plant and fungal matter? Or should they restricted to meat?

Anything that the vampire could safely consume and gain sustenance from if they were human. The whole idea is that they can devour just about anything and anyone that could be considered food.(and being a vampire people are also considered food). Besides, cooked meat doesn't really have any vitae left in it so a meat restriction wouldn't make sense unless it was raw; which while kinda cool in a macabre way doesn't quite fit the direction I'm going for.