Best Combo of Clan/Covenant For "Good Vampire?"

[Caelican]

Fairly new to 2nd edition and, for context, was a big fan of Salubri when I played Masquerade. I wasn't looking for a direct correlation with Salubri and also realize that vamps gonna vamp and are never going to be fully moral creatures. But! Is there a particular combo of Clan/Covenant that lends itself towards playing a less than antagonistic, more actively good version of a vampire. Unaligned is of course an option but I do want to try to engage with Covenant play if possible. As someone pretty unfamiliar, the Carthians look like maybe an option but I was curious to see if there was room for such in the others, especially Lancea.

[ArcaneArts]

Mostly depends on your definition of good, which here means "What, from your impressions, seems the least harmful?"

And of course, a willingness to look at the perspective exact opposite, because first impressions are pretty lies at all times.

As a personal take goes, the Mehket are very good at pretending towards inoffense, and covenants go, the Carthians more actively engage with "good" as it requires participation, while the Ordo Dracul engage with it more in terms of withdrawal-

-but one can make the argument that the Invictus help to keep the monsters prediliections in check, immoral deterrence is the Lancea's entire game, and if you feel good cannot be found without first finding harmony with one's self and place in the world, the Circle is more prepared to help you begin the quest to goodness than anyone else.

But again, it comes down to "what form of harm are you most comfortable with inflicting, or at least the most skilled at justifying?"

EDIT: I suppose a "but arguments for other Clans" should be raised, to wit-The Daeva are either very good and having a lash to spread the harm around so as to keep from grievously afflicting a one or concentratedly afflicting one to spare the many (depending on how you wanna go about it), the Gangrel often doesn't need the same material things other vampries need that can get them wrapped up in "evil" (want not, take not, and all that), the Nosferatu's curses leading to greater community with clan members helps to create strong support networks, and the Ventrue-well, the Lords are predisposed to be Kilgrave, but their curses seem not being particularly pressurable the way others can be, so if you want a splat that will lie to you as you play it, The Ventrue are happy to do it.

EDIT: And for context, without concern for the question of the thread, I opt for Daeva Carthian-Acolyte as a favorite thing to play, so metric that as one considers the advice. EDIT: Well, actually, Daeva Carthian-Tenth Chorister, but that's only if the storyteller is also comfortable with the half joke "The Tenth Choir did nothing wrong."

[Heavy Arms]

While Arc's question is important, I'll offer a suggestion off the bat anyway:

Mekhet/Ordo Dracul.

The Mekhet Disciplines have the least inherent moral quandaries. Auspex, while very easy to abuse, can be used to help find humans that are consenting and willing to offer their blood, while Celerity and Obfuscate allow them to simple avoid/escape situations that seem to be heading in bad ways. The Mekhet Clan Bane is the easiest to navigate morally because it focuses on more "traditional" vampire weaknesses like being repelled by religious symbols, where the rest tend to create much greater risks of morally complicated situations.

The Ordo Dracul are not a morally upstanding group by any means, but they're they easiest Covenant to play a vampire seeking the most moral path in unlife. The OD's goal of overcoming vamprism is plenty appealing to those that want to uphold human morals. The Coil of Ziva is effectively heretical to the mainstream Covenant but studying the Coils under the Ordo is the only way you're going to learn it, which is highly desirable to a vampire seeking to be as moral of an actor as possible.

[ArcaneArts]

While Arc's question is important, I'll offer a suggestion off the bat anyway:

Mekhet/Ordo Dracul.

The Mekhet Disciplines have the least inherent moral quandaries. Auspex, while very easy to abuse, can be used to help find humans that are consenting and willing to offer their blood, while Celerity and Obfuscate allow them to simple avoid/escape situations that seem to be heading in bad ways. The Mekhet Clan Bane is the easiest to navigate morally because it focuses on more "traditional" vampire weaknesses like being repelled by religious symbols, where the rest tend to create much greater risks of morally complicated situations.

The Ordo Dracul are not a morally upstanding group by any means, but they're they easiest Covenant to play a vampire seeking the most moral path in unlife. The OD's goal of overcoming vamprism is plenty appealing to those that want to uphold human morals. The Coil of Ziva is effectively heretical to the mainstream Covenant but studying the Coils under the Ordo is the only way you're going to learn it, which is highly desirable to a vampire seeking to be as moral of an actor as possible.

Yeah, that combo is the closest to a "take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints" approach.

....well, if you replace pictures with secrets and footprints with failed experiments. But still.

[Caelican]

Thank you for the responses! I think the notion of good discussed, sort of the least disruptive and harmonious, certainly fits. But also things that are more actively altruistic too. I am very interested in hearing about how the Lance and Circle could work in these contexts. The Lance, from what I have read, could easily be this for other vampires but when it comes to non-vamps it seems harder to accomplish with the Covenant's philosophy of testing how faithful followers actually are or using suffering to push people towards God. Situationally I see it though, needing to protect the flock of faithful from those outside it.

The Circle I definitely struggle to find it with but I think I might be struggling to find them playable in general and not something closer to antagonists. So, Arc, your favored choice is very relevant in sorting this out!

[ArcaneArts]

Thank you for the responses! I think the notion of good discussed, sort of the least disruptive and harmonious, certainly fits. But also things that are more actively altruistic too. I am very interested in hearing about how the Lance and Circle could work in these contexts. The Lance, from what I have read, could easily be this for other vampires but when it comes to non-vamps it seems harder to accomplish with the Covenant's philosophy of testing how faithful followers actually are or using suffering to push people towards God. Situationally I see it though, needing to protect the flock of faithful from those outside it.

The Circle I definitely struggle to find it with but I think I might be struggling to find them playable in general and not something closer to antagonists. So, Arc, your favored choice is very relevant in sorting this out!

The Lance approaches vampirism as the favorable form of evil, leashed by the Curses to the hidden will of God, and thus the Sanctified view themselves as intercessors of a sort-there to scare away the moral who might otherwise be tempted into evil back into the fold of the herd, and to drag the wicked into vampirism, and ideally utility as a scourge in the Lance.

The Circle is hard to grok as a moral covenant, I get that-but if you can get behind the idea that vampires are natural and have a place on the earth as surely as lions and wolves, the indulgences of the covenant's many cults begin to seem tame in comparison, often at their most extreme just for allowing a vampire to understand and come to terms with themselves as vampires rather than trying to wrestle their perspective going forward against things they are not (though could be, I'm not gonna deny the Ordo their due). In this way, the Circle is also in a better position to weigh and judge what their relationship to humanity is, particularly in a way which doesn't discount that they themselves were human, and therefore is more balanced to see what is actually best for themselves and those in their spiritual ecosystem. Beyond that, the covenant's more or less united adherence to Tribulation Brings Enlightenment and Creation is Power leads them to being keen mediators and counselors who, for all the predatory predilection and wild occultic practice, have a dedication to finding, nurturing, and directing that which is best about persons, a directive to identify and respect strength while understanding how such might exist in harmony with the rest of the world. The final part is that, while definitely bloody handed, the Circle makes use of the animal instincts, not "evil" or "immoral" predilections, and approaches the whole as ground from which much can grow when tended to and directed with clarity and understanding. Sure, all of that includes accepting some ugly parts of the self, and it is a bloody, vicious, sharp tongued and wild-eyed process of discovery and discarding, and I will not pretend it's easy not for an acolyte to detour and end up as a hell of a monster-but if yer the kind of person believe you have to understand the ape before one can hope to appreciate the angel, never mind being where the twain meet in helixed ascent and descent, the Circle offers that wisdom as it's truest-thick and dark like blood, bitter at a sip but sweet on a great pull.

The Tenth Choir did nothing wrong. Well, maybe wanting to destroy the Masquerade, maybe, but not the rest of it.

[Satchel]

For my part, I'm inclined to point out that in a game where "Vampire As Institutional Corruption" is a recurring thematic element, the covenants being Vampire Institutions tends to disqualify them from any uncompromised top slot of morality — the purpose of them, as the Humanity breaking point for joining one indicates, is to make your peace in some fashion with the fact that you are a creature that steals life from the people around it and poisons its surroundings.

As highlighted above, the Mekhet have the least direct psychosocial issues stemming from their bane of the main five, which makes them a good pick if the worst you intend to be is cagey about esoteric stuff (y'know, distinct from the fact that you're a vampire doing vampire things).

[saibot]

So I would like to first point out that if you are inspired by the Salubri, it may be worthwhile to look beyond just clan into bloodlines.There are some bloodlines that lend themselves a bit more to "grey hat" play than most Kindred. The top examples are probably the Septemi (Daeva passionate do-gooders; originally from Ancient Bloodlines, updated to 2e in Bloodlines: The Resurrected) and the Shepherds (Gangrel caretakers, kine managers and pragmatic protectors; also originally from Ancient Bloodlines, updated to 2e in Bloodlines: The Ageless). There may be other good examples.

Secondly, I will throw in a few words on behalf of the Sanctified since you asked about them specifically. As other users have said, the Ordo Dracul lends itself to being a "friendly neighborhood vampire" via withdrawal. Minimize the negative impact of your existence via the Coils and otherwise do your pseudo-science adventures away from fragile mortals. The Lancea et Sanctum on the other hand would represent the flipside: Actively engage with humanity and do (arguably) good. Now, it has to immediately be said that the "good" the Sanctified do is based on a very specific viewpoint and could just as well be seen as evil, but they are the only covenant that actually intends to channel the peculiarities of the vampiric state for what might be taken as an altruistic end. The rest either want what amounts to a pragmatic management of it or fully indulge in it. The Sanctum are the only covenant that mechanically encourages holding on to Humanity (as it is required for Theban Sorcery). Of course engagement also means a greater chance of things going wrong (for everyone involved), and at its most misanthropic the Sanctified doctrine is easily more horrific than any Acolyte bacchanal.

It is important to keep in mind that there is no "good" covenant, but you can have "good-er" Kindred in each covenant. This applies to the Sanctified perhaps more starkly than most. The Judge who knows a thing or two about addiction (of course, being Kindred) helping the local junky scene get free of that stuff is just as much Sanctified as vampire John Doe (as from Se7en) and either could probably construct a justification from the Testament. But that isn't any different from the Defiant trying to figure out Anoushka's Ladder versus the Dragon scientist who has absolutely zero conception of ethical research. But ultimately, a "vampiric angel" (in whatever way one might understand that term) is a Sanctified character concept.

[Ur-Than]

1ed I'd have said the Circle would have been the go to, it felt very much wicca-lite (a goddess but not really a lot of horrible vibes). They have become darker in 2ed but I still consider the Acolyte better at being good persons than Sanctified for out of game reasons but also because the tenets of their many faiths makes them into ambivalent figures, able to hear out the pain of others and then dishes out bloody hunts on others.

They seek tribulations and adversity, and in that regard they are probably the Kindred who would hesitate the least to take on gangs, powerful institutions and the like to defend exploited peoples. Mostly for the danger it brings rather than any concrete ideology but they crave such events, after all.

[Heavy Arms]

One of the problems with the Circle, is that Cruac actively harms Humanity. Now, by many definitions of "good" you can be good and have a lower Humanity score, but the knock on effects it has in 2e (esp. Banes) is putting up a fairly significant roadblocks towards night-to-night good actions even if it might empower you to go after bigger good goals (though it's hard to make a case that it empowers you more than any other Covenant in that regard).

The moral ambivalence noted is also a problem. Yes, the Circle can easily justify treating their domains like gardens, and weeding out negative influences in a fashion that aligns with many approaches to being good. But they can also decide to uproot a flower bed to plant herbs just as easily as they can decide to go weeding.

The Circle generally works better as a source of allies or mentors for a vampire seeking a "good" path because as noted by Arc, they see with a clarity born of not being attached to either good or evil. They might not agree with your choice of actions, nor you with their recommendations, but being able to seek their council is probably one of the best ways for a vampire to find a source of even assessment of a situation that the other Covenant would bias from the perspectives of their given ideologies.

[TwoDSix]

There's also the fact that the game heavily skews towards the idea of 'no good vampires', including the covenants not really being nice. Oh sure, the Carthians are a progressive bunch, but when one of the other covenants is a traditional church and another organises itself based on feudalism 'progressive' potentially includes some very problematic ideas. And those three are the relatively moral options, the Circle and Ordo both have teachings that'll stop any ideas you have of being a 'good vampire' before you're a neonate.

Like, the Ordo has the most tools to help you be a 'good vampire'. But to get those tools you need a lack of ethics and have to go through some messed up initiation rituals ('kill this person. Now record every knock on effect their death has', some of them never actually stop that one).

If you do good it'll likely be the very messy and dark kind. You can walk such a path with almost any Clan, and a couple of Covenants, but there's no nice Salubri Antitribu to play as anymore.

[ArcaneArts]

There's also the fact that the game heavily skews towards the idea of 'no good vampires', including the covenants not really being nice. Oh sure, the Carthians are a progressive bunch, but when one of the other covenants is a traditional church and another organises itself based on feudalism 'progressive' potentially includes some very problematic ideas. And those three are the relatively moral options, the Circle and Ordo both have teachings that'll stop any ideas you have of being a 'good vampire' before you're a neonate.

Like, the Ordo has the most tools to help you be a 'good vampire'. But to get those tools you need a lack of ethics and have to go through some messed up initiation rituals ('kill this person. Now record every knock on effect their death has', some of them never actually stop that one).

If you do good it'll likely be the very messy and dark kind. You can walk such a path with almost any Clan, and a couple of Covenants, but there's no nice Salubri Antitribu to play as anymore.

This has already been addressed by the OP, with them understanding that they'll settle for what people regard as the "easiest to get closest to", and later specified that they are interested in both conceptions of a good vampire as "the least disruptive" and "the most actively altruistic ones."*

The current conversation about the Lance and the Circle, in specific, comes from having interest in them divorced from that, and being curious about what those two bring to a morality interested player.

*We've well covered the Mehket Ordo Dracul as, after having done it's homework, the "least disruptive" best candidate, but when it comes to the "most actively altruistic ones", it occurs to me that no one has mentioned the Invictus here- as the covenant that is the most interested in keeping the operations of an Elysium moving smoothly and efficiently, their tenets do often ensure making sure people get the help they need to not disappear into the Beast, that conflicts be handled quietly and ideally peacefully, and that the humans in their fiefdoms are sufficiently distracted with sufficient reparations for any major breaches. Sure, they do this because power and stability and not morality, but silk rules as often as iron, and their role as the Conspiracy of Silence means they're also the most likely to think of humans as a party that at least has to be tended to instead of otherwise simply being the herd you pluck from. Even for all the socially progressive reasons I'd rather go with the Carthians, the Carthians are vykrocentrically concerned, and are more prone to understanding the human populace as an expendable hammer they can manipulate into being swung rather than a group that has needs that must be met if they're gonna be docile.

Still the Mehket as the preferable clan.

[Heavy Arms]

It occurs to me that one of the difficulties in discussing the Covenants, is that there's a huge difference between what they're like in a city with most or all of them present in a significant fashion, vs. a city where only one or two are really there.

It seems to me that the more present in a meaningful way, the more they're going to be on their best behavior to compete for membership and increase their sway over local politics. The less of them, the more they can flaunt some of their less appealing aspects.

[ArcaneArts]

It occurs to me that one of the difficulties in discussing the Covenants, is that there's a huge difference between what they're like in a city with most or all of them present in a significant fashion, vs. a city where only one or two are really there.

It seems to me that the more present in a meaningful way, the more they're going to be on their best behavior to compete for membership and increase their sway over local politics. The less of them, the more they can flaunt some of their less appealing aspects.

"I know it's rigged, but it's the only game in town."

In fairness, the OP makes it sound like any game where this is applied is still in the planning stages, if the entire thing isn't purely hypothetical. Because of that, it does allow the whole breadth of options for "what can morality in the Covenants look like" to be approached.

oddly enough, in that exploration, I think we've talked about what every covenant can look like at it's best behavior except the Carthians, which I imagine in many other conversations would be an immediate go-to(hell, I mentioned them).

[NineDaysDead]

The Coil of Ziva is effectively heretical to the mainstream Covenant but studying the Coils under the Ordo is the only way you're going to learn it, which is highly desirable to a vampire seeking to be as moral of an actor as possible.

The Coil of Ziva doesn't provide much benefit to good vampire because they won't be making many detachment rolls, the real benefits come to totally sick monsters who want to keep a high humanity while rolling for detachment every 5 minutes.