[Dark Eras] Mother Wolf for Norse Uratha?

[wyrdhamster]

So re-reading Wolf and Raven Dark Era, I start to wonder what could be local Urfarah variant from myths. With assessed role of Mani as Luna interpretation and Sol as Helios, logical would be Mother Wolf figure in local myths ( as Norse were much more strict to gay relationships, not like Romans Uratha with their lesbian Luna and Capitol Wolf parents. ) With that in mind, do you think that mine myth about Mother of Wolves will work in this setting? Especially as I want to use event of Fenris imprisonment by Jotun giants also in game. Would Angerboda being mother of Fernis would be internally consistent?

Mother of Wolves
In ancient times, that we all almost don't remember, gods and giants, spirit and flash, freely walk upon the young earth. In this still warm from creation land many beings could be gods of powerful spirit, giants of formidable flesh, or often even both. One of them was Mother of Wolves. She was able to give death and life, destruction and birth. She was mother to all wolves, but also guardian of secret ways to commune with spirits, to walk between land of mortals and land of gods. She stood on watch if both gods and humans respect they place in creation. And she deliver massage between them.

As Mother of Wolves was truly beautiful, she was having cubs with all different suitors, and those children become Firstborns, like Fenris-Ur. But on long nights, she would see Mani, Father Moon, in his silver chariot running in the sky. He was once man, but gods put him in the sky, to light the night with his silver armor. Mother of Wolves desired him so much, by her wish she shed her skin, become human for a night, and walked to his chariot in the sky. After night of passion, she returned and born First Pack, blessed with gift of changing skin and they faces, as both they mother shed her fur and they father is changing each night his face.

But this miracle night wasn't enough for Mother of Wolves. Even if she knew her love only once defied the rules, she wanted to return to Mani and to be with him forever. Gods made this exception only once, and she made a new race of beings from this union. Afraid what could they love made more to the balance of the world, spirits not allowed her to return to the sky, even for one more night with her lover.

She raised First Pack, and they Father would watch over them in the nights. She teach them her duties and hunt with them on those that broke the rules of creation. But years passed, and Mother of Wolves was denied the warm embrace of Mani. She let her duties as guardian slip more and more, as she dreamed of unreachable union. Her heart was filled with rage and envy. Later she would be known as Angerboda - One Who Brings Grief – because of horrible things she would let go on the world, and what she herself done to others blinded by emotions. Mother of Wolves was threat to herself, creation and her own children.

And so, on next the night, Father Moon told the werewolves that her rule must go to past. They knew now Angerboda wouldn't let her duty free until she dies. So First Pack needed do this for the best of whole creation. But some of werewolves were to afraid and run from responsibility. Rest of the pack made this necessary sin. In dying breath Mother of Wolves cursed her own children so the silver, moon metal, would burn them to the flesh. Even if he couldn't totally lift it, Father eased it by adding that only weapon made of it will hurt them, as he was also lord of silver. But Mani only lifted curse on those that listen him and done what had to be done. Gods were furious from what a werewolves done and are to this day. They cursed People so humans would be afraid of them. And so First Pack would be called De Övergivna, Forsaken, from now on. And traitors of First Pack would be known as De Rena, Pure, as they did not want to be burden with sin of killing Mother of Wolves.

Father Moon understood he must help his children when they Mother was dead and world have turned from them. But he had duties that need to be done, each night, every night, till the end of times. So he send Hjukis - once children he stolen from Earth's years before and now spirits that were his loyal servants. They were tasked to guide the People and teach the ways of the Moon and to help them in their duties to watch over barrier between Flesh and Spirit. Each Hjuki teach about only part of Fathers lore, as only he himself know whole. Father would grant care of each one as spiritual guide to each next werewolf. And so Auspices come to being.

But still De Övergivna were surrounded by the world that hated them. First Pack needed patrons with the gods. They hunt down and plead Firstborns, first children of Angerboda. Initially those powerful spirits were furious and wouldn't listen, blinded by the rage for killing they Mother. but De Övergivna hunt and run to them again, and again. Finally Firstborns understood they need to forgive they half-brothers and half-sisters, and guide them in the name of memory of they common Mother. And so the Tribes of the Moon come to being.

But the sins can't be undone. Not all Firstborn forgive the Moon his action. Wolves crave for Mani's blood for what he talked in to First Pack and each day and night Hati Hróðvitnisson, Managarmr, the Moon Hound, is chasing Peoples Father on the sky, letting to shown only one Hujki's face at the time. He become patron of De Rena werewolves and together they hunt for Father Moon and his loyal People. There is gods prophecy that someday all Firstborns will return to Moon for blood of they mother, lead by Fenris. It will be time of Ragnarök and the gods will pay for they inaction when Angerboda were being murdered.

And so, to this day, De Övergivna hunts the nights to fulfill duties that Angerboda left. They are watched over by Mani and his Hjukis. They are guided by the Firstborns under they Tribes, so they could understand legacy from Mother of Wolves. Even if both Hjukis and Firstborns are not easy allies, they respect and fear one another. And to this day they all hate De Rena. Untill the time of Ragnarök, may he never come.

[21C Hermit]

Well, a quick look at Mani's article in Wikipedia shows some interesting theories about him. Strangely missing in mortal mythology? Possible relationship with a female jotunn? I suppose this mysterious consort could be Angrboda.

Maybe the jotunn who bound Fenris-Ur believes them to be the true children of Angrboda, and that she was no wolf-beast but a giant troll. They could believe that by chaining up the bastard children of Angrboda (the Firstborn and the Uratha race), they can resurrect Angrboda.

Hmm... if Angrboda is the hidden partner of Mani, then this also raises interesting implications about beings such as Hati, Skoll, Loki, Jormundardr, and Hel.

[nofather]

Having children with giants is hardly unheard of, it's how Thor and Loki were made. The myths used the idea to represent the concept of getting strength and power from the old ways.

Mani as Luna and Wolf as representing the Old Ways certainly fits if you want it to be in your setting. It implies a lack of spiritualism, as one could find out 'the truth' by speaking to spirits and seeking lore, but it's still an option.

[wyrdhamster]

It implies a lack of spiritualism, as one could find out 'the truth' by speaking to spirits and seeking lore, but it's still an option.

I'm wonder how Uratha local myths are implying lack of spiritualism...

[nofather]

I'm wonder how Uratha local myths are implying lack of spiritualism...

Believing solely in local myths suggests you're not talking to or dealing with spirits, some of whom would be older than these local myths.

[Necrophear]

Given the subjective nature of ephemeral entities that adjust their views and goals based on the thoughts, feelings, and beliefs around them [spirits and resonant energy], I'd say that there's not an objective 'truth' as far as spirits go. Werewolves are also human, if you recall, and a primary trait of humanity is a remarkable skill to look at data sets and see the patterns that confirm their beliefs. From the spirits being given affect by human belief, and human belief further shaping the interpretation of the information given by spirits, it makes sense that werewolves in different cultures have different interpretations of the same basic myths; why, it's almost as though that's exactly what cultures do in real life!

Not to mention that canonically, werewolves in different parts of the world are supposed to have different interpretations of their Gifts, banes, and duties, informed by interpretations of their mythology separate from the default North American one.

[nofather]

Given the subjective nature of ephemeral entities that adjust their views and goals based on the thoughts, feelings, and beliefs around them [spirits and resonant energy], I'd say that there's not an objective 'truth' as far as spirits go.

They're not as inclined to base their beliefs on it, though. They base their thoughts and feelings on actual things. Belief is a matter of the Astral.

Werewolves are also human, if you recall, and a primary trait of humanity is a remarkable skill to look at data sets and see the patterns that confirm their beliefs. From the spirits being given affect by human belief, and human belief further shaping the interpretation of the information given by spirits, it makes sense that werewolves in different cultures have different interpretations of the same basic myths; why, it's almost as though that's exactly what cultures do in real life!

To some extent, but that should be open to change especially when other cultures and powers are there. Not to mention there's two massive sects of belief that werewolf belief has hinged itself on, supported by the Firstborn and Luna, in however mysterious a fashion.

Not to mention that canonically, werewolves in different parts of the world are supposed to have different interpretations of their Gifts, banes, and duties, informed by interpretations of their mythology separate from the default North American one.

The mythology given in the core is not the 'default North American' one, it's the 'default werewolf' mythology.

[Necrophear]

Spirits don't tend to have beliefs, by RAW. They have urges at rank one, which is by far the most common type of spirit save those not gaining a rank, and ranks two through four are shown to be as fallible as humans in their interpretation of data. So I'll have to thoroughly disagree, considering the printed evidence.

The mythology given in the core is indeed centered on North America. Prices, cities, political and social structures, they're based on the United States or comparison to U.S. equivalents throughout WWP's history. Printed material representing other locales has universally offered differing opinions and interpretations, if not outright alternate mythologies. The political and spiritual evidence of werewolf society as printed is that it's only a tad less fractured globally than comparative human society. It stands to reason, and is supported by supplements, that North American interpretation as the 'default werewolf' mythology is only that by rote of being the default setting for many printed pieces.

[wyrdhamster]

High Rank Spirits are assumed to take identities of local mortal deities. In Forsaken by Rome we have those phenomena on Roman spirits:

High Ranks ( Rank 4-5 ) are called Maters and took the names and forms of Rome’s gods.

[nofather]

Spirits don't tend to have beliefs, by RAW. They have urges at rank one, which is by far the most common type of spirit save those not gaining a rank, and ranks two through four are shown to be as fallible as humans in their interpretation of data. So I'll have to thoroughly disagree, considering the printed evidence.

They're also immortal and don't require written history. A spirit of an event that occurred a thousand years ago will be able to tell you what happened a thousand years ago. It would likely exaggerate, but it would be there. The problem with this mythology is that it requires every Norse werewolf to believe the same thing without error without question. As you pointed out, even the 'default' werewolf mythology is questioned, its argued about by the two main factions, it's ignored by many but not all ghost wolves, there are lodges dedicated to other belief systems. But in this area, despite any evidence to the contrary, despite the existence of beings and even other werewolves that could explain otherwise, this belief is monolithic among disparate people who barely communicate. They all wear the same hat.

The mythology given in the core is indeed centered on North America. Prices, cities, political and social structures, they're based on the United States or comparison to U.S. equivalents throughout WWP's history. Printed material representing other locales has universally offered differing opinions and interpretations, if not outright alternate mythologies. The political and spiritual evidence of werewolf society as printed is that it's only a tad less fractured globally than comparative human society. It stands to reason, and is supported by supplements, that North American interpretation as the 'default werewolf' mythology is only that by rote of being the default setting for many printed pieces.

The mythology is not centered on North America, I'm not sure what you're talking about with prices, cities, political and social structures. Certainly the setting takes a North American foundation but the mythology of the werewolf is beyond that. Werewolf mythology is based on tribes, lodges, protectorates and packs, all of which have existed well before America was colonized by the Europeans. The given story about the Urfarah and the Sundering and the formation of the tribes has its variations, and those variations have variations, but it is the default mythology of Uratha, and supported by much of the material, not just a North American view of it.

As for printed material of other locals 'universally' offering different interpretations, that's incorrect. While variations do exist, many across the land, even in dark eras, still use the 'default' myth. Even in darker eras, even during the colonization and exploration of the Americas it was the default myth that variations tended to base themselves off of, as evidenced by the Brotherhood of Crossed Swords and the Lodge of Quetzal.

I'm surprised you'd think the myth was just a North American one, even in the core book you have examples of foreign lands where it's clearly the prime belief.

[Necrophear]

They're also immortal and don't require written history. A spirit of an event that occurred a thousand years ago will be able to tell you what happened a thousand years ago. It would likely exaggerate, but it would be there.

Assuming that they've survived that long in a world which has near infinite ways spirits get screwed.

The problem with this mythology is that it requires every Norse werewolf to believe the same thing without error without question. As you pointed out, even the 'default' werewolf mythology is questioned, its argued about by the two main factions, it's ignored by many but not all ghost wolves, there are lodges dedicated to other belief systems. But in this area, despite any evidence to the contrary, despite the existence of beings and even other werewolves that could explain otherwise, this belief is monolithic among disparate people who barely communicate. They all wear the same hat.

I... no. Just no. This is such a simplistic approach to world-building, it's hard to know where to begin. First off, given that the 'default' mythology is so contested, Norse mythology is likely just as contested, just like actual Norse beliefs. Further, no: werewolves in the default setting simply don't all share the same belief system. The majority do, and it's encouraged to push it as a default, but that's not the same.

The mythology is not centered on North America <SNIP>

I bring it up because the default mortal setting is a North American landscape, and as such the Uratha society in the default setting is informed by North American views and mortal politics just as readily as the spirit world; a tangential world and perspective that, as I already covered, is fungible and more open to interpretation than religion.

As for printed material of other locals 'universally' offering different interpretations, that's incorrect. While variations do exist, many across the land, even in dark eras, still use the 'default' myth. Even in darker eras, even during the colonization and exploration of the Americas it was the default myth that variations tended to base themselves off of, as evidenced by the Brotherhood of Crossed Swords and the Lodge of Quetzal.

Show me where it's actually incorrect, and I said 'locales' rather than locals. The American werewolf society and mythology as printed, historically through the present, is influenced heavily by Navajo, Aztec, and more generally Blackfoot culture, with smatterings of Christianity still eking their way in as remnants of the old systems.
When we're given examples in Dark Eras and other supplemental texts that fall entirely outside the purview of North American influence, we're given different treatments of similar myths with different outcomes: that's a basic trait of comparative mythology, and carries through as far as we're aware from printed text to other changing breeds and shapeshifters and their respective wolves of were elsewhere.

[nofather]

Assuming that they've survived that long in a world which has near infinite ways spirits get screwed.

At the very least, werewolves get prophesies from Luna, and are granted entry into the tribes by the Firstborn, who are older than Norse tradition. If you're going to argue that there are no spirits older than Norse belief in Norse lands that's a pretty extreme view to take.

I... no. Just no. This is such a simplistic approach to world-building, it's hard to know where to begin. First off, given that the 'default' mythology is so contested, Norse mythology is likely just as contested, just like actual Norse beliefs. Further, no: werewolves in the default setting simply don't all share the same belief system. The majority do, and it's encouraged to push it as a default, but that's not the same.

I didn't say they all shared the same belief system, I repeatedly said there were variations. But you're agreeing with me here. Actual Norse beliefs were contested, there's even evidence of jotun worship. So why are all Uratha in Norse lands ignoring any deviation and following this myth, when, again, there's spirits and other entities that can offer reasons to believe otherwise?

I bring it up because the default mortal setting is a North American landscape, and as such the Uratha society in the default setting is informed by North American views and mortal politics just as readily as the spirit world; a tangential world and perspective that, as I already covered, is fungible and more open to interpretation than religion.

They have no impact on the default myth, however.

Show me where it's actually incorrect, and I said 'locales' rather than locals. The American werewolf society and mythology as printed, historically through the present, is influenced heavily by Navajo, Aztec, and more generally Blackfoot culture, with smatterings of Christianity still eking their way in as remnants of the old systems.

I did. The Brotherhood of Crossed Swords, conquistadores, and the Lodge of Quetzal still follow the belief of Urfarah, the Sundering, and the founding and vendetta of the Forsaken and Pure.

What other mythology are you talking about?

[Necrophear]

At the very least, werewolves get prophesies from Luna, and are granted entry into the tribes by the Firstborn, who are older than Norse tradition. If you're going to argue that there are no spirits older than Norse belief in Norse lands that's a pretty extreme view to take.

Communication from Luna is nil, and the Firstborn are considered lies by a good number of Uratha canonically. What I'm arguing is that there is likely a glut of spirits toting various religions and beliefs due to their sensitive natures, usually dependent on the local zeitgeist; this includes cults and lesser beliefs.

I didn't say they all shared the same belief system, I repeatedly said there were variations. But you're agreeing with me here. Actual Norse beliefs were contested, there's even evidence of jotun worship. So why are all Uratha in Norse lands ignoring any deviation and following this myth, when, again, there's spirits and other entities that can offer reasons to believe otherwise?

You said the belief was monolithic, something that simply by rote of you arguing that there's variation and deviation you've argued against. Jötunn worship would probably serve as analagous or related to the Pure Tribes in lands these would stem from. Pretending I've claimed universal adherence would be needed for this to work doesn't get you anywhere when that's fundamentally the opposite of my argument.

[North American views and politics] have no impact on the default myth, however.

That's just not true if you look at the text with a critical eye. It's further reaching chronologically than modern society, but it's there.

I did. <SNIP>

Provide examples outside of the Americas.

[nofather]

Communication from Luna is nil, and the Firstborn are considered lies by a good number of Uratha canonically. What I'm arguing is that there is likely a glut of spirits toting various religions and beliefs due to their sensitive natures, usually dependent on the local zeitgeist; this includes cults and lesser beliefs.

Direct appearance by Luna is nil. Communication is what an entire auspice is based around, the Cahalith. And your definition of 'good number' must be small as it takes the Firstborn to be accepted into the tribes..

The spirits don't carry religions with them. A spirit of wouldn't care if its worshipers changed hands from Muslim to Buddhist to Christian and then Pagan providing the method of worship offered up Essence.

You said the belief was monolithic, something that simply by rote of you arguing that there's variation and deviation you've argued against. Jötunn worship would probably serve as analagous or related to the Pure Tribes in lands these would stem from. Pretending I've claimed universal adherence would be needed for this to work doesn't get you anywhere when that's fundamentally the opposite of my argument.

I said 'this belief is monolithic.' Referring to wyrdhamster's post above. It's the sole belief in his Norse setting, despite the reality that the people shared different beliefs and some cases drastically so, for example jotun worship.

That's just not true if you look at the text with a critical eye. It's further reaching chronologically than modern society, but it's there.

Tell me how North American politics have influenced the myth of the Sundering, Firstborn and Luna, and the division between the Forsaken and the Pure. Because it's been depicted as a worldwide struggle that's existed since shortly after the Sundering and, honestly, even before then, as we can see sects forming before the death of Urfarah, in 7000 BC what-will-be-Europe, that are similar to the Pure.

Even the core book when getting into the mythology points out that, while variations exist, werewolf history shares the common thread of the Sundering.

Provide examples outside of the Americas.

The Hunting Grounds of Basra, Iraq, Belfast and Bristol in the UK, Dubai in the United Arab Emirates, Malta, and Bangkok, Thailand and now ancient Rome. Stretching back through first edition we have 10th century Iceland, 188 AD China, Africa, India, Australia and Japan, Poland and France and the Czech Republic.

I mean obviously they use terms like dollars, but I don't know where you got the idea that the werewolf mythos was only a North American one, or just American. Nothing in the core should even suggest it, there's examples of foreign lands, I mentioned a few above, that are clearly using it.

[Necrophear]

Direct appearance by Luna is nil. Communication is what an entire auspice is based around, the Cahalith. And your definition of 'good number' must be small as it takes the Firstborn to be accepted into the tribes..

That communication is suspect, especially in a non-canon setting like the one being presented, and my definition is doing just fine considering that many among the Forsaken themselves disagree, let alone the Pure and other mythologies.

The spirits don't carry religions with them. A spirit of wouldn't care if its worshipers changed hands from Muslim to Buddhist to Christian and then Pagan providing the method of worship offered up Essence.

Consider that the spirit may not be a spirit of worship, but a spirit of Christianity or Ostara. The spirit feeding from a congregation isn't directly worshiped, most aren't, but feeds from a particular variety of worship; this in turn would influence a growing spirit's behavior, outlook, and philosophy.

I said 'this belief is monolithic.' Referring to wyrdhamster's post above. It's the sole belief in his Norse setting, despite the reality that the people shared different beliefs and some cases drastically so, for example jotun worship.

When you said that, it was in reference to the default beliefs of the printed line. Further, Luna and the Firstborn are even recognized in wyrdhampster's post as being extant.

Tell me how North American politics have influenced the myth of the Sundering, Firstborn and Luna, and the division between the Forsaken and the Pure. Because it's been depicted as a worldwide struggle that's existed since shortly after the Sundering and, honestly, even before then, as we can see sects forming before the death of Urfarah, in 7000 BC what-will-be-Europe, that are similar to the Pure.

Tell me how North American exceptionalism and society wouldn't influence burgeoning cultures, and then refute the simple fact that Werewolf society is dependent upon human society both mechanically and narratively. Politics didn't influence the Sundering, matters politick did influence how the Sundering is approached, interpreted, and passed down as is the simple truth of oral traditions - yes, even those with talespinners who lived the experience, and especially in a fictional setting where the old are invariably unreliable narrators.

Even the core book when getting into the mythology points out that, while variations exist, werewolf history shares the common thread of the Sundering.

Most real-world mythologies have a Great Flood or Cinderella story, but the context in which these stories are told and the intended morals are as diverse as the cultures that tell them. Just because there need to be some key similarities representing ineffable events doesn't mean that the interpretations of these events have to be the same.

As for the setting, backtracking doesn't become you. The context given for the core game and most of its supplements are North American and North American views (or stereotypes of the same), you already agreed to that. I've already covered ties specifically to North American native tribes, and you yourself brought up one or two conceits based on the modern United States.
Mechanically, that means little outside the core book, but narratively it carries the implication of bias in what tales to tell and how to tell them.
Within the core book, especially in second edition, the printed material speaks against what we're told about werewolf culture in supplements, leaving us with two options. First, that Luna is universal, and as such it makes sense that you ignore supplemental material. Second, that the core book doesn't wish to overwhelm new players with the nuance of a million cultures and subcultures, none of which can be adequately covered in a book to completion.
It is the second option that I subscribe to, and allow additional texts to supplement the world alongside any necessary homebrew.

Finally, all this is irrelevant to the requested topic.

Yes, wyrdhamster. That story seems internally consistent, and could work very well as a setting.