[Dark Eras] Mother Wolf for Norse Uratha?

[Jeremysbrain]

Here is my take on Uratha, Vikings and Norse mythology: The Wolf Age

Mani is sexually dimorphic, just like in regular forsaken mythology. Uratha usually see Mani as a mother.

Father Wolf, is Fenrir, who is distinct from and the father of Fenris-Ur the Firstborn.

Fenrir, was slain by his children which caused the Sundering. But he hadn't fulfilled his fate yet, so the Norns would just return him to life. Before he resurrected, Tyr drug him into the Underworld and chained him up. There he remains separated from Midgard and it's Shadow.

[Seidmadr]

Are there direct myths on this? I do know she is only Mother of Many Monsters. Mother do not need to live past birthing the children.

Well, Hel, the Midgard Serpent, and Fenrir were living with her. in her home, where Loki visited her, while he carried on the tryst with her.

[wyrdhamster]

I'd like to point out that an important aspect of Werewolf lore is that Wolf is long dead. Angerboda isn't.

Are there direct myths on this? I do know she is only Mother of Many Monsters. Mother do not need to live past birthing the children.

[Seidmadr]

Small dictionary of local terms I use for Norse Uratha, in context of Mother of Wolves myth.

Luna / Moon – Mani, Father Moon
Urfarah / Wolf - Mother of Wolves, later Angerboda - One Who Brings Grief
Sun - Sól
Lunes - Hjukis, rarely Bils
Forsaken - De Övergivna
Pure - De Rena

I'd like to point out that an important aspect of Werewolf lore is that Wolf is long dead. Angerboda isn't.

[wyrdhamster]

Small dictionary of local terms I use for Norse Uratha, in context of Mother of Wolves myth.

Luna / Moon – Mani, Father Moon
Urfarah / Wolf - Mother of Wolves, later Angerboda - One Who Brings Grief
Sun - Sól
Lunes - Hjukis, rarely Bils
Forsaken - De Övergivna
Pure - De Rena

[wyrdhamster]

Reading Norse Mythology more, I think I found other interesting connection - young god Vali was changed in to wolf because he said truth and driven mad by transformation. Interesting would be to connect him with Rabid Wolf of Fire-Touched.

[nofather]

That communication is suspect, especially in a non-canon setting like the one being presented, and my definition is doing just fine considering that many among the Forsaken themselves disagree, let alone the Pure and other mythologies.

Where do you get the idea the Forsaken disbelieve in the Firstborn?

When you said that, it was in reference to the default beliefs of the printed line. Further, Luna and the Firstborn are even recognized in wyrdhampster's post as being extant.

No, I was referring to wyrdhamster's mythology. The mythology of the werewolves isn't monolithic because you have the Pure and Forsaken arguing over smaller things.

Tell me how North American exceptionalism and society wouldn't influence burgeoning cultures, and then refute the simple fact that Werewolf society is dependent upon human society both mechanically and narratively. Politics didn't influence the Sundering, matters politick did influence how the Sundering is approached, interpreted, and passed down as is the simple truth of oral traditions - yes, even those with talespinners who lived the experience, and especially in a fictional setting where the old are invariably unreliable narrators.

I'm sure you could justify anyone altering it to their own goals. But the myth we're given in the core book is the default myth, the common core, not influenced by North American politics or cultures. It's a story of what happened thousands of years ago. And it's fairly accurate.

Most real-world mythologies have a Great Flood or Cinderella story, but the context in which these stories are told and the intended morals are as diverse as the cultures that tell them. Just because there need to be some key similarities representing ineffable events doesn't mean that the interpretations of these events have to be the same.

I referred to those different interpretations as variations. For instance the Ivory Claws believe that their Firstborn totem, Silver Wolf, first saw Urfarah's weakness and challenged him and that the only reason the others were able to beat him later was because Silver Wolf weakened him. And some believe it's Father Wolf and Mother Luna while others might believe it's Mother Wolf and Father Luna. You even have extreme variations, like the Australian wolves who had no contact with other werewolves, didn't know of the Forsaken and Pure, have it, except instead of Pangaea they call it the Dreaming.

As for the setting, backtracking doesn't become you. The context given for the core game and most of its supplements are North American and North American views (or stereotypes of the same), you already agreed to that. I've already covered ties specifically to North American native tribes, and you yourself brought up one or two conceits based on the modern United States.
Mechanically, that means little outside the core book, but narratively it carries the implication of bias in what tales to tell and how to tell them.

As above, the use of American terminology doesn't extend to influencing the myth of the Sundering.

Within the core book, especially in second edition, the printed material speaks against what we're told about werewolf culture in supplements, leaving us with two options. First, that Luna is universal, and as such it makes sense that you ignore supplemental material. Second, that the core book doesn't wish to overwhelm new players with the nuance of a million cultures and subcultures, none of which can be adequately covered in a book to completion.
It is the second option that I subscribe to, and allow additional texts to supplement the world alongside any necessary homebrew.

The core and supplemental material both strike back to the common core mythology. I gave you a large list of places and eras they're depicted in. They're in the second edition core, the Pack, and various first edition books.

[Necrophear]

Direct appearance by Luna is nil. Communication is what an entire auspice is based around, the Cahalith. And your definition of 'good number' must be small as it takes the Firstborn to be accepted into the tribes..

That communication is suspect, especially in a non-canon setting like the one being presented, and my definition is doing just fine considering that many among the Forsaken themselves disagree, let alone the Pure and other mythologies.

The spirits don't carry religions with them. A spirit of wouldn't care if its worshipers changed hands from Muslim to Buddhist to Christian and then Pagan providing the method of worship offered up Essence.

Consider that the spirit may not be a spirit of worship, but a spirit of Christianity or Ostara. The spirit feeding from a congregation isn't directly worshiped, most aren't, but feeds from a particular variety of worship; this in turn would influence a growing spirit's behavior, outlook, and philosophy.

I said 'this belief is monolithic.' Referring to wyrdhamster's post above. It's the sole belief in his Norse setting, despite the reality that the people shared different beliefs and some cases drastically so, for example jotun worship.

When you said that, it was in reference to the default beliefs of the printed line. Further, Luna and the Firstborn are even recognized in wyrdhampster's post as being extant.

Tell me how North American politics have influenced the myth of the Sundering, Firstborn and Luna, and the division between the Forsaken and the Pure. Because it's been depicted as a worldwide struggle that's existed since shortly after the Sundering and, honestly, even before then, as we can see sects forming before the death of Urfarah, in 7000 BC what-will-be-Europe, that are similar to the Pure.

Tell me how North American exceptionalism and society wouldn't influence burgeoning cultures, and then refute the simple fact that Werewolf society is dependent upon human society both mechanically and narratively. Politics didn't influence the Sundering, matters politick did influence how the Sundering is approached, interpreted, and passed down as is the simple truth of oral traditions - yes, even those with talespinners who lived the experience, and especially in a fictional setting where the old are invariably unreliable narrators.

Even the core book when getting into the mythology points out that, while variations exist, werewolf history shares the common thread of the Sundering.

Most real-world mythologies have a Great Flood or Cinderella story, but the context in which these stories are told and the intended morals are as diverse as the cultures that tell them. Just because there need to be some key similarities representing ineffable events doesn't mean that the interpretations of these events have to be the same.

As for the setting, backtracking doesn't become you. The context given for the core game and most of its supplements are North American and North American views (or stereotypes of the same), you already agreed to that. I've already covered ties specifically to North American native tribes, and you yourself brought up one or two conceits based on the modern United States.
Mechanically, that means little outside the core book, but narratively it carries the implication of bias in what tales to tell and how to tell them.
Within the core book, especially in second edition, the printed material speaks against what we're told about werewolf culture in supplements, leaving us with two options. First, that Luna is universal, and as such it makes sense that you ignore supplemental material. Second, that the core book doesn't wish to overwhelm new players with the nuance of a million cultures and subcultures, none of which can be adequately covered in a book to completion.
It is the second option that I subscribe to, and allow additional texts to supplement the world alongside any necessary homebrew.

Finally, all this is irrelevant to the requested topic.

Yes, wyrdhamster. That story seems internally consistent, and could work very well as a setting.

[nofather]

Communication from Luna is nil, and the Firstborn are considered lies by a good number of Uratha canonically. What I'm arguing is that there is likely a glut of spirits toting various religions and beliefs due to their sensitive natures, usually dependent on the local zeitgeist; this includes cults and lesser beliefs.

Direct appearance by Luna is nil. Communication is what an entire auspice is based around, the Cahalith. And your definition of 'good number' must be small as it takes the Firstborn to be accepted into the tribes..

The spirits don't carry religions with them. A spirit of wouldn't care if its worshipers changed hands from Muslim to Buddhist to Christian and then Pagan providing the method of worship offered up Essence.

You said the belief was monolithic, something that simply by rote of you arguing that there's variation and deviation you've argued against. Jötunn worship would probably serve as analagous or related to the Pure Tribes in lands these would stem from. Pretending I've claimed universal adherence would be needed for this to work doesn't get you anywhere when that's fundamentally the opposite of my argument.

I said 'this belief is monolithic.' Referring to wyrdhamster's post above. It's the sole belief in his Norse setting, despite the reality that the people shared different beliefs and some cases drastically so, for example jotun worship.

That's just not true if you look at the text with a critical eye. It's further reaching chronologically than modern society, but it's there.

Tell me how North American politics have influenced the myth of the Sundering, Firstborn and Luna, and the division between the Forsaken and the Pure. Because it's been depicted as a worldwide struggle that's existed since shortly after the Sundering and, honestly, even before then, as we can see sects forming before the death of Urfarah, in 7000 BC what-will-be-Europe, that are similar to the Pure.

Even the core book when getting into the mythology points out that, while variations exist, werewolf history shares the common thread of the Sundering.

Provide examples outside of the Americas.

The Hunting Grounds of Basra, Iraq, Belfast and Bristol in the UK, Dubai in the United Arab Emirates, Malta, and Bangkok, Thailand and now ancient Rome. Stretching back through first edition we have 10th century Iceland, 188 AD China, Africa, India, Australia and Japan, Poland and France and the Czech Republic.

I mean obviously they use terms like dollars, but I don't know where you got the idea that the werewolf mythos was only a North American one, or just American. Nothing in the core should even suggest it, there's examples of foreign lands, I mentioned a few above, that are clearly using it.

[Necrophear]

At the very least, werewolves get prophesies from Luna, and are granted entry into the tribes by the Firstborn, who are older than Norse tradition. If you're going to argue that there are no spirits older than Norse belief in Norse lands that's a pretty extreme view to take.

Communication from Luna is nil, and the Firstborn are considered lies by a good number of Uratha canonically. What I'm arguing is that there is likely a glut of spirits toting various religions and beliefs due to their sensitive natures, usually dependent on the local zeitgeist; this includes cults and lesser beliefs.

I didn't say they all shared the same belief system, I repeatedly said there were variations. But you're agreeing with me here. Actual Norse beliefs were contested, there's even evidence of jotun worship. So why are all Uratha in Norse lands ignoring any deviation and following this myth, when, again, there's spirits and other entities that can offer reasons to believe otherwise?

You said the belief was monolithic, something that simply by rote of you arguing that there's variation and deviation you've argued against. Jötunn worship would probably serve as analagous or related to the Pure Tribes in lands these would stem from. Pretending I've claimed universal adherence would be needed for this to work doesn't get you anywhere when that's fundamentally the opposite of my argument.

[North American views and politics] have no impact on the default myth, however.

That's just not true if you look at the text with a critical eye. It's further reaching chronologically than modern society, but it's there.

I did. <SNIP>

Provide examples outside of the Americas.

[nofather]

Assuming that they've survived that long in a world which has near infinite ways spirits get screwed.

At the very least, werewolves get prophesies from Luna, and are granted entry into the tribes by the Firstborn, who are older than Norse tradition. If you're going to argue that there are no spirits older than Norse belief in Norse lands that's a pretty extreme view to take.

I... no. Just no. This is such a simplistic approach to world-building, it's hard to know where to begin. First off, given that the 'default' mythology is so contested, Norse mythology is likely just as contested, just like actual Norse beliefs. Further, no: werewolves in the default setting simply don't all share the same belief system. The majority do, and it's encouraged to push it as a default, but that's not the same.

I didn't say they all shared the same belief system, I repeatedly said there were variations. But you're agreeing with me here. Actual Norse beliefs were contested, there's even evidence of jotun worship. So why are all Uratha in Norse lands ignoring any deviation and following this myth, when, again, there's spirits and other entities that can offer reasons to believe otherwise?

I bring it up because the default mortal setting is a North American landscape, and as such the Uratha society in the default setting is informed by North American views and mortal politics just as readily as the spirit world; a tangential world and perspective that, as I already covered, is fungible and more open to interpretation than religion.

They have no impact on the default myth, however.

Show me where it's actually incorrect, and I said 'locales' rather than locals. The American werewolf society and mythology as printed, historically through the present, is influenced heavily by Navajo, Aztec, and more generally Blackfoot culture, with smatterings of Christianity still eking their way in as remnants of the old systems.

I did. The Brotherhood of Crossed Swords, conquistadores, and the Lodge of Quetzal still follow the belief of Urfarah, the Sundering, and the founding and vendetta of the Forsaken and Pure.

What other mythology are you talking about?

[Necrophear]

They're also immortal and don't require written history. A spirit of an event that occurred a thousand years ago will be able to tell you what happened a thousand years ago. It would likely exaggerate, but it would be there.

Assuming that they've survived that long in a world which has near infinite ways spirits get screwed.

The problem with this mythology is that it requires every Norse werewolf to believe the same thing without error without question. As you pointed out, even the 'default' werewolf mythology is questioned, its argued about by the two main factions, it's ignored by many but not all ghost wolves, there are lodges dedicated to other belief systems. But in this area, despite any evidence to the contrary, despite the existence of beings and even other werewolves that could explain otherwise, this belief is monolithic among disparate people who barely communicate. They all wear the same hat.

I... no. Just no. This is such a simplistic approach to world-building, it's hard to know where to begin. First off, given that the 'default' mythology is so contested, Norse mythology is likely just as contested, just like actual Norse beliefs. Further, no: werewolves in the default setting simply don't all share the same belief system. The majority do, and it's encouraged to push it as a default, but that's not the same.

The mythology is not centered on North America <SNIP>

I bring it up because the default mortal setting is a North American landscape, and as such the Uratha society in the default setting is informed by North American views and mortal politics just as readily as the spirit world; a tangential world and perspective that, as I already covered, is fungible and more open to interpretation than religion.

As for printed material of other locals 'universally' offering different interpretations, that's incorrect. While variations do exist, many across the land, even in dark eras, still use the 'default' myth. Even in darker eras, even during the colonization and exploration of the Americas it was the default myth that variations tended to base themselves off of, as evidenced by the Brotherhood of Crossed Swords and the Lodge of Quetzal.

Show me where it's actually incorrect, and I said 'locales' rather than locals. The American werewolf society and mythology as printed, historically through the present, is influenced heavily by Navajo, Aztec, and more generally Blackfoot culture, with smatterings of Christianity still eking their way in as remnants of the old systems.
When we're given examples in Dark Eras and other supplemental texts that fall entirely outside the purview of North American influence, we're given different treatments of similar myths with different outcomes: that's a basic trait of comparative mythology, and carries through as far as we're aware from printed text to other changing breeds and shapeshifters and their respective wolves of were elsewhere.

[nofather]

Spirits don't tend to have beliefs, by RAW. They have urges at rank one, which is by far the most common type of spirit save those not gaining a rank, and ranks two through four are shown to be as fallible as humans in their interpretation of data. So I'll have to thoroughly disagree, considering the printed evidence.

They're also immortal and don't require written history. A spirit of an event that occurred a thousand years ago will be able to tell you what happened a thousand years ago. It would likely exaggerate, but it would be there. The problem with this mythology is that it requires every Norse werewolf to believe the same thing without error without question. As you pointed out, even the 'default' werewolf mythology is questioned, its argued about by the two main factions, it's ignored by many but not all ghost wolves, there are lodges dedicated to other belief systems. But in this area, despite any evidence to the contrary, despite the existence of beings and even other werewolves that could explain otherwise, this belief is monolithic among disparate people who barely communicate. They all wear the same hat.

The mythology given in the core is indeed centered on North America. Prices, cities, political and social structures, they're based on the United States or comparison to U.S. equivalents throughout WWP's history. Printed material representing other locales has universally offered differing opinions and interpretations, if not outright alternate mythologies. The political and spiritual evidence of werewolf society as printed is that it's only a tad less fractured globally than comparative human society. It stands to reason, and is supported by supplements, that North American interpretation as the 'default werewolf' mythology is only that by rote of being the default setting for many printed pieces.

The mythology is not centered on North America, I'm not sure what you're talking about with prices, cities, political and social structures. Certainly the setting takes a North American foundation but the mythology of the werewolf is beyond that. Werewolf mythology is based on tribes, lodges, protectorates and packs, all of which have existed well before America was colonized by the Europeans. The given story about the Urfarah and the Sundering and the formation of the tribes has its variations, and those variations have variations, but it is the default mythology of Uratha, and supported by much of the material, not just a North American view of it.

As for printed material of other locals 'universally' offering different interpretations, that's incorrect. While variations do exist, many across the land, even in dark eras, still use the 'default' myth. Even in darker eras, even during the colonization and exploration of the Americas it was the default myth that variations tended to base themselves off of, as evidenced by the Brotherhood of Crossed Swords and the Lodge of Quetzal.

I'm surprised you'd think the myth was just a North American one, even in the core book you have examples of foreign lands where it's clearly the prime belief.

[wyrdhamster]

High Rank Spirits are assumed to take identities of local mortal deities. In Forsaken by Rome we have those phenomena on Roman spirits:

High Ranks ( Rank 4-5 ) are called Maters and took the names and forms of Rome’s gods.

[Necrophear]

Spirits don't tend to have beliefs, by RAW. They have urges at rank one, which is by far the most common type of spirit save those not gaining a rank, and ranks two through four are shown to be as fallible as humans in their interpretation of data. So I'll have to thoroughly disagree, considering the printed evidence.

The mythology given in the core is indeed centered on North America. Prices, cities, political and social structures, they're based on the United States or comparison to U.S. equivalents throughout WWP's history. Printed material representing other locales has universally offered differing opinions and interpretations, if not outright alternate mythologies. The political and spiritual evidence of werewolf society as printed is that it's only a tad less fractured globally than comparative human society. It stands to reason, and is supported by supplements, that North American interpretation as the 'default werewolf' mythology is only that by rote of being the default setting for many printed pieces.