Vampires vs. Werewolves!

[Iguazu]

In NWoD, I have never actually had or seen werewolves fight vampires. How is it? I have seen plenty of vampire vs. werewolf fights in VtM, which usually didn't turn out well for the vampires. What's it like? And why do they fight if they did? WtF virtually has nothing on vampires or even VtR. It's out of the a werewolf's scope.

[atamajakki]

Are you reading 2e? Because a starting werewolf could easily tear through a starting coterie under the current rules.

[BurritoMage]

Unlike VtM & WtA, there is no mechanic or fluff reason for the two splats to want to box every time they run into each other. In fact the whole Chod is very non-splat antagonistic in general.

[wyrdhamster]

In fact the whole Chod is very non-splat antagonistic in general.

Rather, CoD universe assumes that monster races do not have one answer to other monsters. Your particular Uratha or a Pack can hate vampires from deaths of all it hearts - it's just werewolf race as all do not have one answer. We have Siberian Lodge Eaters of Dead that hunt only vampires ( see book The Pack to 2E for them ). We have whole Tribe putting other monsters hiding inside humanity as Sacred Prey - Iron Masters - or some Tribes that often mistake other monsters for other threats - like Storm Lords, thinking changelings or vampires are some kind of Spirits Claimed. Examples on those are in 2E Tribes stereotypes and Wolf & Raven Dark Era ( i.e. Viking times setting ). It's simply is not 'all Uratha hunt vampires' stereotype across whole race.

In fact, in my own Uppsala, Sweden fan setting tense ( and probable conflict ) relations with vampire rule of Archbishop of city is one of major themes.

[Mother's Love]

In my 2e vampire campaign werewolves were fun and/or terrifying depending on whether you'd crossed them or not. Vampires and wolves lived in the same city, their territories overlapped in many ways and there was a diplomatic position under the city's prince that dealt with "negotiating" and "being an ambassador" to the werewolves. The various tensions were constantly messy.

This meant trying to delicately avoid an all out fight when a vampire had pissed off a werewolf. (Usually by messing up their territory, killing their favorite old lady who brings in happy flower spirits, buying up a corner bar that's their favorite drinking spot and turning it into a hunting ground.)

Or trying to get some kind of "demonstration of remorse" when a vampire had pissed off a werewolf then been utterly destroyed/eaten by said werewolf and pack before any kind of negotiations had taken place.

On the flip side, werewolves were very tempting blood dolls and body guards for many a vampire, if you could maneuver them into cooperating with that. And an influential vampire could lend a stabilizing support to a weak pack trying to establish itself.

As far as fighting, I think almost any vampire was at a serious disadvantage against a pack who was hunting them. Being asleep half the day pretty much ensures you're going to get tracked and killed at some point while you're vulnerable. The best way to go against them was to anonymously recruit another werewolf pack.

I highly recommend werewolves in any vampire game, it keeps the vampires a little humble.

[MCN]

This again? And why is it always always always in the werewolf forum?

Every game line has its niche. With the exception of Mage (who are basically OP), every game excells in that niche. Vampires are best at mind controls, social-fu, and cooersion. Werewolves are best at a hunt. You run a game that focuses on hunting and physical challeges, werewolves come out ahead. Something more social where vampire mind controls, cooercion, blood bonds and more come into play? They have the advantage.

And that's not even touching on the fact that werewolves have spirit allies, nor that its not one pack versus one cotorie, its a pack versus the vampire covenants - favor trading and status can be nasty. The two games are just too different to have a meaningful, objective comparison.

And start worryin' about hunting some mages, or prommies, or beasts. The Begotten go around creating fear and destruction spirits and mess up people's lives for the sake of feeding their sadistic hungers. They're pretty nasty to the balance of territory. Why not talk about them some? There's an entire Kuruth Trigger for meeting anything but a normal human or another werewolf type. Werewolves have no reason to focus on vampires especially in the CofD.

[Cainite]

From my own very very limited experience with Werewolf players fighting Vampire NPC's in 2E (basically only one fight so far) Vampires have no chance in a "fair" fight, as in going toe-to-toe against even a newly changed Werewolf in melee. The only chance they seem to have is if the Werewolf has already done their 1-Gauru-change-per-scene and they don't go into Death Rage and you have a very powerful Elder Vampire full of blood.

Or you do enough damage in 1 hit to pretty much insta-kill. I recommend being an expert marksman with an anti-material sniper rifle, firing at a human form Werewolf in the head from 300m away. And then rolling really lucky, hoping you do enough damage to stun, then shoot them again.

[nofather]

In NWoD, I have never actually had or seen werewolves fight vampires. How is it?

Quick and brutal.

I have seen plenty of vampire vs. werewolf fights in VtM, which usually didn't turn out well for the vampires.

As you probably noticed from other posts, there's no real inbuilt reason for werewolves to hunt vampires the way they did in Masquerade, where vampires were touched by the Wyrm and sort of walked around with werewolf targets on their back. That said, it does happen. There's a would-be tribe, currently in lodge form as the Eaters of the Dead, that is dedicated to it, and individual packs can set a focus to hunt whatever they want.

What's it like? And why do they fight if they did?

Werewolves can choose to hunt vampires for all manner of reasons, of course. Ranging from simply not liking them or a personal vendetta like they killed his family and forced his First Change to something obscure like they rendered a locus unusable.

WtF virtually has nothing on vampires or even VtR. It's out of the a werewolf's scope.

We're expecting a Crossover book in a while that might cover this sort of thing. Meanwhile, the Pack does have some information about vampire and werewolf interactions, but it's mostly from the point of vampires being in a werewolf's pack.

[Elfive]

It's kind of the nuclear option, but at their peak, "set literally everything within a ten mile radius of me on fire" is something a werewolf could potentially do.

So, yeah, going to war would end badly for the vamps. Minor skirmishes though? That can go either way. Always pays to remember that a vampire's real forte is avoiding a fight.

[Iguazu]

As you probably noticed from other posts, there's no real inbuilt reason for werewolves to hunt vampires the way they did in Masquerade, where vampires were touched by the Wyrm and sort of walked around with werewolf targets on their back. That said, it does happen. There's a would-be tribe, currently in lodge form as the Eaters of the Dead, that is dedicated to it, and individual packs can set a focus to hunt whatever they want.

.

That's kind of what I have noticed since the WtA-days. There's no reason for a werewolf to hunt vampires other than any reason a vampre would have to hunt vampires. However, it's a big theme of VtM and VtR games.

[nofather]

However, it's a big theme of VtM and VtR games.

I wouldn't say it's a big thing in Requiem's setting, so if it's a big thing in their games it may just be the storyteller. I often run them as uneasy allies in the dark, since their lifestyles, compared to the other gamelines, are so close. They're both predators and occasionally kill other members of their own kind and humans, but they're also the only ones who are really 'tagged' by the media. If someone discovered a Changeling with their Masque down they would likely have no idea what to think of the green man with the horns. But a man that shifts into a wolf is likely a werewolf, and a woman drinking blood with her fangs from a woman is likely a vampire, and there's a whole slew of easy-to-access movies telling you how to deal with it, even if they aren't 100% correct.

They're the big two, most numerous and popular, and since their activities cause them to have to have a 'normal' second life, they run into each other a lot in the course of it. If it always flipped to combat just because a vampire lived on the same block as a werewolf, life as either would be untenable. So there's more of an appreciation for each other as creatures of the dark.

The tremendous weakness of Daysleep gives a big incentive for vampires to not instigate fights, and werewolves don't exactly want to lose their friends or family. In my last game my werewolf's best friend fell into a vampire crowd while he was digging into something else. When he was blood bonded he just wasn't the same person, so I made an agreement with the vampiress who did it in exchange for her letting him go and skipping town, never to be seen again. It ended up with my character taking out a house of ghouls, sneaking into secret dugout basement with living plants, getting lost in the secret exit before trailing back and finding the sleeping vampire and staking then destroying them. It was done during the day, but it was way outside of our territory, and the vampires were very organized in this place, verging on breaking the masquerade they had such open control over things, so it was very risky, especially since the ghouls were armed with silver bullets.

[Pale_Crusader]

Rather, CoD universe assumes that monster races do not have one answer to other monsters.

Your particular Uratha or a Pack can hate vampires from deaths of all it hearts - it's just werewolf race as all do not have one answer. We have Siberian Lodge Eaters of Dead that hunt only vampires ( see book The Pack to 2E for them ). We have whole Tribe putting other monsters hiding inside humanity as Sacred Prey - Iron Masters - or some Tribes that often mistake other monsters for other threats - like Storm Lords, thinking changelings or vampires are some kind of Spirits Claimed. Examples on those are in 2E Tribes stereotypes and Wolf & Raven Dark Era ( i.e. Viking times setting ). It's simply is not 'all Uratha hunt vampires' stereotype across whole race.

In fact, in my own Uppsala, Sweden fan setting tense ( and probable conflict ) relations with vampire rule of Archbishop of city is one of major themes.

and lets not forget Shadows over Mexico, and Dead Wolves for the opposite end of the spectrum.

In my Portland Oregon Setting the most powerful Seers of the Throne Pylon has an alliance with the current Carthian Vampire rulers, and the local Pure and Forsaken have an uneasy truce, making the Uratha and Vampire situation an potentially volitile situation if the Vampires push buttons that'd make they good targets for a Sacred Hunt, but also makes several areas known to be dangerous to the Uratha (like to World Trade Center, a Elysium and where the Pylon play host to other Seers)

[Spencer from The Hills]

I think there a have been a couple of hints that the Pure tend not to get along with vampires. The Blood Talons' line about vampires is "Creepy dead bastards do half our work for us" and the Dead Jacks and the werewolves of the Gower are at each others' throats. Maybe vampires tend to piss off the Hisil or the Ivory Claws have a bone to pick with them. I could see a few Circle of the Crone covens buddying up with Bale Hounds or Predator Kings though.

[Pale_Crusader]

I could see a few Circle of the Crone covens buddying up with Bale Hounds or Predator Kings though.

Funny you say that! My friend uses Crone/Predator King packs so often they are frequently called the Pure Crone in his games and Hunters in the area are confused as to the line between vampires and werewolves (Many Gangrel Dead Wolves in the wilderness near his cities).

[nofather]

That makes sense.

The Pure were more fanatical in first edition, it was hard to imagine them 'grouping' with anyone playing them completely by the book, but the changes in second really make them a more plausible for that. The Ivory Claws are definitely going to bump heads with the Invictus, going back and forth between warring and allying, the Predator Kings and Crone fit so well especially for a huntress-based cult of them, that's some great imagery Pale_Crusader. I could see the Circle with the Fire-Touched, too, if they were a particularly spiritual coven.