Vampires vs. Werewolves!

[Poseur]

I've literally made a protectorate in my game with the express Aspiration of toasting Kindred and Ghouls into extinction, precisely because the Circle was fucking with spiritual matters. Can you guess which ones were the first we hit? Yes, the Cronies (pun intended). It wasn't even hard. And no, if I have Elemental facets, I don't need to ask fire spirits input to torch the place.

Which surely got the response that was feasible from the kindred community.

The standard thing with these comments and scenarios is the one-sidedness it comes with. Everyone has pretty good understanding of their main splat and the setting one plays in from the splats perspective. The other splats are relocated to plotpoints and enemies, their social structure and powers are not really put into a larger perspective.
For instance, attacking in a blitzkrieg fashion and murdering one covenant in the city would get all other kindred in against their common foe. Mutual animosities aside, in a place where a foe can and is willing to murder an entire covenant means the others are at the same risk. And last time i checked, self-preservation is usually a common theme among the kindred.

Like in every act of splat vs. splat scenario, imagining it was easy or how easy one splat has to kill or destroy another is to downplay frailties and drawbacks from one side and downplay or straight up ignoring the powers of the other splat.
No I'm not saying they are on equal footing, but they are never compared without heavy bias.

[Malus]

Which surely got the response that was feasible from the kindred community.

The standard thing with these comments and scenarios is the one-sidedness it comes with. Everyone has pretty good understanding of their main splat and the setting one plays in from the splats perspective. The other splats are relocated to plotpoints and enemies, their social structure and powers are not really put into a larger perspective.
For instance, attacking in a blitzkrieg fashion and murdering one covenant in the city would get all other kindred in against their common foe. Mutual animosities aside, in a place where a foe can and is willing to murder an entire covenant means the others are at the same risk. And last time i checked, self-preservation is usually a common theme among the kindred.

Like in every act of splat vs. splat scenario, imagining it was easy or how easy one splat has to kill or destroy another is to downplay frailties and drawbacks from one side and downplay or straight up ignoring the powers of the other splat.
No I'm not saying they are on equal footing, but they are never compared without heavy bias.

Vampires literally lose 8 to 12 of hours of the day sleeping. Arranging that blitzkrieg was easy. The rest was sending the ultimatum of why the covenant got murdered. Genocides are ineffective for the same reason you don't corner a wounded animal. After you've dealt with the ones who'd put up a fight, the ones who didn't run scared shitless sought out a compromise, then added another tradition: don't fuck with lupines.

[Poseur]

Vampires literally lose 8 to 12 of hours of the day sleeping. Arranging that blitzkrieg was easy. The rest was sending the ultimatum of why the covenant got murdered. Genocides are ineffective for the same reason you don't corner a wounded animal. After you've dealt with the ones who'd put up a fight, the ones who didn't run scared shitless sought out a compromise, then added another tradition: don't fuck with lupines.

Q.E.D.


(characters)

[Vent0]

For instance, attacking in a blitzkrieg fashion and murdering one covenant in the city would get all other kindred in against their common foe. Mutual animosities aside, in a place where a foe can and is willing to murder an entire covenant means the others are at the same risk. And last time i checked, self-preservation is usually a common theme among the kindred.

Except... Kindred are notorious for internal strife and back-biting. If the Circle wasn't popular in the domain, the other Covenants might instead send gift baskets to the werewolves. Sure, they probably study just what happened and take measures to ensure it doesn't happen to them too, all the while smiling and talking of alliance.

Ultimately, more data is needed about the setup other than "Vampires vs Werewolves". Numbers, existing connections, high powered members, specialist members, preparation, etc. All of them can swing near any group vs group conflict in either direction. Even Mages could lose to Hunters with enough weighting.

[Poseur]

Except... Kindred are notorious for internal strife and back-biting. If the Circle wasn't popular in the domain, the other Covenants might instead send gift baskets to the werewolves. Sure, they probably study just what happened and take measures to ensure it doesn't happen to them too, all the while smiling and talking of alliance.

Ultimately, more data is needed about the setup other than "Vampires vs Werewolves". Numbers, existing connections, high powered members, specialist members, preparation, etc. All of them can swing near any group vs group conflict in either direction. Even Mages could lose to Hunters with enough weighting.

Yes they are, but so is werewolves as well. But back to point, yes backstabbing fangs is kinda the trademark of vampires. I do although believe quite frankly that animosities will take the backseat for a while, not stop, just take the backseat if the rules of engagement changes so drastically that no one is safe anymore. As pointed out before, splat-societies, powers and influence must be taken more into these considerations, and as you as well point out be taking with more thought then just numbers.

Yes, many vampires, notably the Lancea et Sanctum would probably rejoice that the cronies are gone, but that doesn't stop them from realizing that their heads are next. If something can and is willing to arbitrary wipe a whole covenant in a domain from the face of the earth, it's time for the other covenants to respond in kind and prepare.

The idea that werewolves could wipe a covenant form the domain, "easy" is just either childish or just plain ignorant of the complexity of both the setting and reality (although i guess a pulpy or gonzo kind of playstyle/setting does allow for this) and does not conform to the basics of the cold war mentality that exists between and sometimes in-between splats.

One way or another, a war between splats is a catastrophe of M.A.D. proportions in worst case or extremely taxing in the best of cases.

Not even mages has a win-button.

[Malus]

Yes they are, but so is werewolves as well. But back to point, yes backstabbing fangs is kinda the trademark of vampires. I do although believe quite frankly that animosities will take the backseat for a while, not stop, just take the backseat if the rules of engagement changes so drastically that no one is safe anymore. As pointed out before, splat-societies, powers and influence must be taken more into these considerations, and as you as well point out be taking with more thought then just numbers.

Yes, many vampires, notably the Lancea et Sanctum would probably rejoice that the cronies are gone, but that doesn't stop them from realizing that their heads are next. If something can and is willing to arbitrary wipe a whole covenant in a domain from the face of the earth, it's time for the other covenants to respond in kind and prepare.

The idea that werewolves could wipe a covenant form the domain, "easy" is just either childish or just plain ignorant of the complexity of both the setting and reality (although i guess a pulpy or gonzo kind of playstyle/setting does allow for this) and does not conform to the basics of the cold war mentality that exists between and sometimes in-between splats.

One way or another, a war between splats is a catastrophe of M.A.D. proportions in worst case or extremely taxing in the best of cases.

Not even mages has a win-button.

The difference is that Werewolves are made to hunt, and the protectorate was created in order to keep the vampires in check. That dissuades the "inner strife" angle you're advocating there. It's their jam. Vampires would rather scurry to their havens every night for the next century than deal with a Prince machinations or an elder's agenda. Do let me know however the kindred would learn how to respond to the sort of unseen threat a pack implement with just Catastrophe and Tongue of Flame, without the Circle's eyes on the Shadow.

[nofather]

Sure, werewolf packs are famous for their backstabbing. And if Requiem for Rome has taught us anything, it's that vampires will put aside personal issues for the survival of the rest of their kind.

[Satchel]

Sure, werewolf packs are famous for their backstabbing.

Werewolf packs in plural — which is what the comparable element to covenants are in this context — are notorious for being a bunch of busybodies who will make a grab for someone else's territory at the first sign of weakness because they think they can do everybody's job better regardless of the actual situation. Stow the sarcasm.

Do let me know however the kindred would learn how to respond to the sort of unseen threat a pack implement with just Catastrophe and Tongue of Flame, without the Circle's eyes on the Shadow.

Funny thing about Havens: They're built off of Safe Place and specifically build their scaling on how well-defended the place is against the sun, and they're often in cities. Finding a vampire's Haven, much less getting using Influence over fire from across the Gauntlet — on a place inhabited by a creature who doesn't need light to see, which might well be underground — is not going to be a walk in the park without a fairly specific set of competencies.

If you've got a Purity 4 Ithaeur Hunter in Darkness poking around the sewer lair of a Nosferatu with high Obfuscate, that's pitting a veteran hunter against a veteran survivor, not the dismissive shenanigan of "I'll just firebomb them from the Shadow."

[Vent0]

Yes they are, but so is werewolves as well. But back to point, yes backstabbing fangs is kinda the trademark of vampires. I do although believe quite frankly that animosities will take the backseat for a while, not stop, just take the backseat if the rules of engagement changes so drastically that no one is safe anymore. As pointed out before, splat-societies, powers and influence must be taken more into these considerations, and as you as well point out be taking with more thought then just numbers.

Yes, many vampires, notably the Lancea et Sanctum would probably rejoice that the cronies are gone, but that doesn't stop them from realizing that their heads are next. If something can and is willing to arbitrary wipe a whole covenant in a domain from the face of the earth, it's time for the other covenants to respond in kind and prepare.

The idea that werewolves could wipe a covenant form the domain, "easy" is just either childish or just plain ignorant of the complexity of both the setting and reality (although i guess a pulpy or gonzo kind of playstyle/setting does allow for this) and does not conform to the basics of the cold war mentality that exists between and sometimes in-between splats.

One way or another, a war between splats is a catastrophe of M.A.D. proportions in worst case or extremely taxing in the best of cases.

Not even mages has a win-button.

The difference is that Werewolves are made to hunt, and the protectorate was created in order to keep the vampires in check. That dissuades the "inner strife" angle you're advocating there. It's their jam. Vampires would rather scurry to their havens every night for the next century than deal with a Prince machinations or an elder's agenda. Do let me know however the kindred would learn how to respond to the sort of unseen threat a pack implement with just Catastrophe and Tongue of Flame, without the Circle's eyes on the Shadow.

Werewolf packs in plural — which is what the comparable element to covenants are in this context — are notorious for being a bunch of busybodies who will make a grab for someone else's territory at the first sign of weakness because they think they can do everybody's job better regardless of the actual situation. Stow the sarcasm.

Funny thing about Havens: They're built off of Safe Place and specifically build their scaling on how well-defended the place is against the sun, and they're often in cities. Finding a vampire's Haven, much less getting using Influence over fire from across the Gauntlet — on a place inhabited by a creature who doesn't need light to see, which might well be underground — is not going to be a walk in the park without a fairly specific set of competencies.

If you've got a Purity 4 Ithaeur Hunter in Darkness poking around the sewer lair of a Nosferatu with high Obfuscate, that's pitting a veteran hunter against a veteran survivor, not the dismissive shenanigan of "I'll just firebomb them from the Shadow."

Again, all this just illustrates that it depends on more details than just "Vampires vs Werewolves". If Werewolves are initiating hostilities without the Kindred knowing, they could indeed probably scout out many of the Vampires' Havens (Uratha have far too many tools to track undetected) and then firebomb them from the Shadow, etc. On the other hand, Vampires opening up the fight could set up an entire web of influence to destroy the Uratha's human lives and Pack members before they know what's coming. If the Covenant in question is small and disliked, they are probably better off gone, in most Vampires' minds. Conversely, if the Forsaken are small and disliked by the Spirit world, Kindred will find their efforts encouraged.

Details matter.

[nofather]

Werewolf packs in plural — which is what the comparable element to covenants are in this context — are notorious for being a bunch of busybodies who will make a grab for someone else's territory at the first sign of weakness because they think they can do everybody's job better regardless of the actual situation. Stow the sarcasm.

They really aren't, though. It was pushed in first edition but it hasn't come up in second. In fact in second edition we've had more examples of werewolves banding together against threats to themselves, or just for general peace. The only time they've been seen turning against an established comfort level is when driven mad by an outside force.

You don't have a trademark on sarcasm, Satchel. There's a reason werewolves have had the eight tribes for thousands of years and vampires go through covenants like they go through ghouls.

Funny thing about Havens: They're built off of Safe Place and specifically build their scaling on how well-defended the place is against the sun, and they're often in cities. Finding a vampire's Haven, much less getting using Influence over fire from across the Gauntlet — on a place inhabited by a creature who doesn't need light to see, which might well be underground — is not going to be a walk in the park without a fairly specific set of competencies.

Or just general watching their territory. The ideal force to wipe out vampires is an Ivory Claw with Tongue of Flame, sure, I've said this repeatedly. Sacred hunt to locate connections, flame to burn them out. But most werewolves are going to do fine on their own.

If you don't have that, you have to do some legwork, but werewolves are great at locating things, especially in their territory. Scent the Unnatural, Lore of the Land, just looking around. For the fraction of vampires that have hidden underground lairs, there's a fraction of werewolves that have Moldywarp, there was even a lodge built around the idea.

Incidentally, they do need light to see. They're better at it than humans, but in full darkness they still have a penalty when relying on vision.

Vampires don't need a defender here, we've already established this. Look at wyrdhamster's werewolf getting disarmed, literally, by a coterie of vampires. As Vent0 has said, it depends heavily on your setup. Until you specify some exact werewolves and vampires, you're going to have people back and forth white rooming 'It's conceivably possible that this won't happen because of this other thing that might,' and lopsided contrivances for some reason.

[Malus]

Werewolf packs in plural — which is what the comparable element to covenants are in this context — are notorious for being a bunch of busybodies who will make a grab for someone else's territory at the first sign of weakness because they think they can do everybody's job better regardless of the actual situation. Stow the sarcasm.

Wouldn't be Wise or Honorable or even Glorious if that territorial dispute wasn't useful. Grabbing territory because you feel like, because it proves you're the man and not because someone let shit skip their turf to get to you is a waste of resources.

Funny thing about Havens: They're built off of Safe Place and specifically build their scaling on how well-defended the place is against the sun, and they're often in cities. Finding a vampire's Haven, much less getting using Influence over fire from across the Gauntlet — on a place inhabited by a creature who doesn't need light to see, which might well be underground — is not going to be a walk in the park without a fairly specific set of competencies.

Competencies which half a decent Irraka have. Pulling a stake out on someone from the Shadow is stupidly easy.

If you've got a Purity 4 Ithaeur Hunter in Darkness poking around the sewer lair of a Nosferatu with high Obfuscate, that's pitting a veteran hunter against a veteran survivor, not the dismissive shenanigan of "I'll just firebomb them from the Shadow."

Don't need that. Earthquake the damned sewer. Bust a gas line, set it on fire. From the Shadow. Add some prophecy into the mix to learn if the target will be available if you want to minimize damage. Vampires would feel like they're in a Final Destination movie.

[Satchel]

They really aren't, though. It was pushed in first edition but it hasn't come up in second. In fact in second edition we've had more examples of werewolves banding together against threats to themselves, or just for general peace.

A greater emphasis on protectorates will do that, but it's no more an immunity to internal strife among a locale's packs than the selfish monster at the heart of vampirism is an invalidation of that species' institutional inertia.

Vampire groups haven't historically had straightforward backing from extradimensional immortals directly descended from one of the most powerful beings in history. "The tribes have been around a long time and there have been a lot of shorter-lived covenants" doesn't mean much for unity when you remember that covenants don't have statless undying backers from another world propping them up.

For the fraction of vampires that have hidden underground lairs, there's a fraction of werewolves that have Moldywarp, there was even a lodge built around the idea.

And they'll do great at digging up a hidden vampire, but the specific thing I was addressing was "just firebomb them from across the Gauntlet." I have no tolerance for that kind of reductive presentation of how mages interact with crossover complications and I see no reason to tacitly encourage it from the Werewolf boards.

Incidentally, they do need light to see. They're better at it than humans, but in full darkness they still have a penalty when relying on vision.

-2 is a middle-of-the-road expression of difficulty for the typical range of penalties a normal action will see. That's quite far from "they actually need light to see."

As Vent0 has said, it depends heavily on your setup. Until you specify some exact werewolves and vampires, you're going to have people back and forth white rooming 'It's conceivably possible that this won't happen because of this other thing that might,' and lopsided contrivances for some reason.

My contention is that this means there is no real point in bringing those lopsided contrivances into a thread whose original question was a general one, much less arguing in defense of them and continuing to pin this thread to the front page. Answering the questions contrived setups present is one of the reasons we have games, not the job of bad-faith forum discussions about how Cunning 5 Irraka with Essence to burn are everywhere.

[Poseur]

Don't need that. Earthquake the damned sewer. Bust a gas line, set it on fire. From the Shadow. Add some prophecy into the mix to learn if the target will be available if you want to minimize damage. Vampires would feel like they're in a Final Destination movie.

Or just use blood magic to kill every werewolf in a 10 mile radius. Once again, white room scenarios are pointless and doesn't lead anywhere.

[Malus]

My contention is that this means there is no real point in bringing those lopsided contrivances into a thread whose original question was a general one, much less arguing in defense of them and continuing to pin this thread to the front page. Answering the questions contrived setups present is one of the reasons we have games, not the job of bad-faith forum discussions about how Cunning 5 Irraka with Essence to burn are everywhere.

Satchel has spoken everyone! we should get this thread locked. No, seriously. Beating a dead horse by now.

[maryshelly]

I would compare it to humans and Grizzly bears, a human would not hunt a grizzly by engaging in hand to hand combat, he would set traps, use guns, use spears, and any advantage to kill the bear without getting mauled in the process. I would apply the same principle to werewolves. Don't pick a fight and expect to win in hand to hand combat. So here is how I would assume that Vampires would fight

1/ Silver weapons, could be improvised, silver rings (brass knuckles?), clubs with silver on them, bullets with silver tips (should work), Shotguns with silver shot (which is sold on the internet)
2/ Dominate them from a distance and try to control them before the fight starts
3/ Send ghouls to attack on your behalf with heavy weapons
4/ Use Obfuscate to hit them in an ambush when they are not ready and slay them in one strike
5/ Let them go into Basu-Ilm, use Celerity to get away, then come back when they are exhausted in their human forms...

The possibilities are endless, all it takes is imagination