Vampires vs. Werewolves!

[MCN]

OOC was because if the vampire had fled there would have been no game,

In short, the vampire was given the idiot ball for the sake of being able to kill them?

[LokiRavenSpeak]

It's not about what's scarier now. It's called Primal Fear, it's a fear that's been bred into people since before they started building things called homes and deciding a long piece of wood could be used for something. Vampires aren't afraid of the dark, usually. They are afraid of the Final Death.'

Keep in mind i mentioned Primal Fear in relation to Gauru vs Gauru, not Gauru in kuruth vs Gauru in Kuruth.

It's only badly written in that there's no separate paragraph explaining that the Defense loss part isn't just for 'lesser enemies.

Ymmv to me is badly written because is not just for lesser enemies.

[LokiRavenSpeak]

In short, the vampire was given the idiot ball for the sake of being able to kill them?

OCC? Sure, pretty much. IC? Maybe the vampire in frenzy would have being able to jump over the pilling flaming wreck of a limo, maybe not. I would say that between 1 scrawny (Stamina 1) looking Gauru or fire the vampire would have chosen the scrawny looking Gauru.

[nofather]

Keep in mind i mentioned Primal Fear in relation to Gauru vs Gauru, not Gauru in kuruth vs Gauru in Kuruth.

I did. I just made a point of clarifying that all werewolf battles do not come down to gauru vs gauru.

Ymmv to me is badly written because is not just for lesser enemies.

It would probably be more accurate to say you don't like it. Badly written implies there's some problem with the text, and based on people's confusion for how it works, I can understand that, but that's apparently not what you mean.

I would say that between 1 scrawny (Stamina 1) looking Gauru or fire the vampire would have chosen the scrawny looking Gauru.

Gauru adds 2 Stamina, at least, and 2 Size.

[LokiRavenSpeak]

It would probably be more accurate to say you don't like it. Badly written implies there's some problem with the text, and based on people's confusion for how it works, I can understand that, but that's apparently not what you mean.

Not exactly, the fluff seems to indicate is for lesser enemies while the actual mechanics are for all enemies. To me is badly written because the mechanics dont reflect the fluff. Your take is that is badly written because the fluff doesnt reflect the mechanics.

[LokiRavenSpeak]

Gauru adds 2 Stamina, at least, and 2 Size.

I meant her human stats.

[Elfive]

Lesser enemies use down and dirty combat. Just losing the skill part of your defence means you're a threat.

You could fluff it as innate fighting instincts compensating for the opponents ability to avoid harm if you like.

[Almarck]

I always just though Primal Fear was less an effect you had on people... and more that YOU were a Primal Fear.

[Pale_Crusader]

In short, the vampire was given the idiot ball for the sake of being able to kill them?

[Agreeing]Also it is not true that the vampire fleeing would have meant no game, there is the whole " What just happened?" scene, the follow up investigating scene, possible find the vampire scene, which then makes a social or combat scene. All of which is more interesting in my opinion than "it died like a mindless video game AI bot" scene. Let's not forget the escaping vampire likely snitched about the incident to coterie, Elysium court or Covenant friends, thus alerting the whole vampire cacophony to a mad pack of bone gnawing hoodlums.
"White room" is never a good thing in the game, "White room" means without intelligently thought out context from the setting and characters, and hopefully you always have intelligently thought out context from the setting and characters in the game. [/Agreeing]

Because in a real game intelligently thought out context from the setting and characters are going to likely tip the scales of conflicts in either direction, we can more trends for certain types of conflict but the overall topic is interestingly moot.

[LokiRavenSpeak]

there is the whole " What just happened?" scene, the follow up investigating scene, possible find the vampire scene, which then makes a social or combat scene.

Not it wouldnt, the rest of the PC party wanted to extract the Ithaeur ASAP and not hunt a vampire. The ithaeur wanted to kill vampire because fun.

Let's not forget the escaping vampire likely snitched about the incident to coterie, Elysium court or Covenant friends, thus alerting the whole vampire cacophony to a mad pack of bone gnawing hoodlums.

Also wrong. The setting as presented (Hunting grounds: The rockies) had NPC pack Black Moon Extreme killing various vampire and thus Vampire society already alerted. Had the vampire flee, the rest of the PC pack would grab the Ithaeur by the back of the neck, drag him away and forbid her from talking to BMX because they are a bad influence for everything. The vampire hunt would have been abandoned (as only the Ithaeur and BMX did the rite) and as the PC pack were all in furry forms, no way to track it back to them. They would force the Ithaeur to remove himself and them from that particular plot, which the ithaeur would have done because her player is a pushover and that moment when she disobey the pack and did something "bad" would have had absolutely no weight or consequence.

"White room" is never a good thing in the game, "White room" means without intelligently thought out context from the setting and characters, and hopefully you always have intelligently thought out context from the setting and characters in the game. [/Agreeing]

Because in a real game intelligently thought out context from the setting and characters are going to likely tip the scales of conflicts in either direction, we can more trends for certain types of conflict but the overall topic is interestingly moot.

I disagree, white room has a time and place. Some people disregard it but it is a nice way to test 1 on 1 combat mechanics. And some people assume that NPC always must act with the most absolute logic when in reality people act dumb and in games PC act dumb too.

Normally their course of action wasnt the best course possible course of action possible.

[Pale_Crusader]

Not it wouldnt, the rest of the PC party wanted to extract the Ithaeur ASAP and not hunt a vampire. The ithaeur wanted to kill vampire because fun.




Also wrong. The setting as presented (Hunting grounds: The rockies) had NPC pack Black Moon Extreme killing various vampire and thus Vampire society already alerted. Had the vampire flee, the rest of the PC pack would grab the Ithaeur by the back of the neck, drag him away and forbid her from talking to BMX because they are a bad influence for everything. The vampire hunt would have been abandoned (as only the Ithaeur and BMX did the rite) and as the PC pack were all in furry forms, no way to track it back to them. They would force the Ithaeur to remove himself and them from that particular plot, which the ithaeur would have done because her player is a pushover and that moment when she disobey the pack and did something "bad" would have had absolutely no weight or consequence.



I disagree, white room has a time and place. Some people disregard it but it is a nice way to test 1 on 1 combat mechanics. And some people assume that NPC always must act with the most absolute logic when in reality people act dumb and in games PC act dumb too.

Normally their course of action wasnt the best course possible course of action possible.

I agree white room has a place, like theoretical physic, which is to say not in actual application. Useful for system design right before play testing starts to try how it works with context.

About the specific chronicle I think a specific description and update on last know location of the vampire hunting werewolf pack would still be meaningful to how the game could play out. Or is the entire vampire template given the stupid ball so they are basically clusters of stats without intelligence or motivations, and just objects to be killed? Fighting of course is an option, but really attempts at negotation via proxies and bribes/holding leveage against non-uratha pack members (or how the vampires would see it as striking ar mortal pawns, a favorite kindred hobby in the danse macabre) or alternatively vanishing via leaving the area, hiding behind moral proxies that bring food to them, and hiding via Torpor are much more reasonable reactions that wading into combat. Also please do consider we are discussing a 1st edition setting in 2nd edition context and that more than justified a reexamination and ST rewriting it a bit to update it to fit current themes. A setting is a stage, what the actors do on the stage should reflect character motivation, and if it isn't dying a martyr or suicide then a good chunk of that motivation should be to stay alive, which rings true of real life motivation.

If the PCs were not in fact hunting vampires, then you have a situation where it'll be assumed they crashed the vehicle in order to hunt that vampire, and they'd be identified with that tactic and intent (sounds like it was ST created forced plot point to create drama, thus not intentional for the PCs) then a dark comedy of errors ensues.

[Malus]

I disagree, white room has a time and place. Some people disregard it but it is a nice way to test 1 on 1 combat mechanics. And some people assume that NPC always must act with the most absolute logic when in reality people act dumb and in games PC act dumb too.

Normally their course of action wasnt the best course possible course of action possible.

Hey, if the vamp was in frenzy is completely natural that the Beast wanted to fucking murder the werewolf that screwed it's limo sideways. YMMV.

That being said, if the vamp had escaped I would have gotten it to hunt the Ithaeur (and/or his/her loved ones) and therefore the pack for the audacity. Thus bringing the pack into the plot. But, y'know, hindsight.

[nofather]

Guys come on, not everyone's going to run their game the same way or come up with the same results. Loki was posting a snippet of their game, not asking for help dealing with it.

[Iguazu]

A vampire is very effective in fighting a werewolf; all the vampire has to do is wait for the werewolf to die of old-age.

[Elfive]

It's actually a bit vague whether or not they do that.