Vampires vs. Werewolves!

[AmusedByIrony]

I confess that I'm a bit surprised no one's mentioned Claws of the Unholy yet. ^^ If you want a vampire who can go toe-to-toe with Gauru-form, you could do worse than a Gangrel Sworn of the Axe; it's not exactly XP-cheap, but Protean 4 + decent Blood Potency + Coil of the Beast 4 makes for an undead Wolverine, even before adding any physical Disciplines.

Even granting that social-fu is the more default archetype of VtR characters, though, there's another dimension to this that I think is going under-mentioned: the market price of silver. Having mortal resources, even if they're tied up in property or favors or networks of blood dolls, means at least some opportunity to translate those resources into cash... and cash translates into precious metal, if you've got enough of it.

If the city's Damned really feel their unlives are at stake, you can imagine the call going out: "We. Need. Silver. Name your price." Two weeks later, their cash reserves are depleted and they're under favor debts to foreign Princes that will take half a century to pay off... but every vampire and ghoul is packing fully-automatic weapons and enough silver bullets to supply an infantry squad. (If the Prince is feeling *really* extravagant [or paranoid], s/he might even commission silver armor for the city's high-and-mighty; you can bite us, puppies, but you won't enjoy it very much.) Yes, the wolves move fast, and those Defense scores can be quite decent, but autofire and multiple attackers can compensate. Suddenly Iron Masters and any other wolves with Shaping/Technology gifts are in high demand, the better to sabotage the leeches' new toys (which of course means they're priority targets if the vampires find out who they are...)

[nofather]

I confess that I'm a bit surprised no one's mentioned Claws of the Unholy yet. ^^ If you want a vampire who can go toe-to-toe with Gauru-form, you could do worse than a Gangrel Sworn of the Axe; it's not exactly XP-cheap, but Protean 4 + decent Blood Potency + Coil of the Beast 4 makes for an undead Wolverine, even before adding any physical Disciplines.

We're dealing more with generalities, which is why people haven't brought things like that up or werewolves with gifts that let them breathe fire.

Even granting that social-fu is the more default archetype of VtR characters, though, there's another dimension to this that I think is going under-mentioned: the market price of silver. Having mortal resources, even if they're tied up in property or favors or networks of blood dolls, means at least some opportunity to translate those resources into cash... and cash translates into precious metal, if you've got enough of it.

And Iguazu seemed to be talking more about individual fights, rather than some kind of war where one side waits for the other to kill them.

Have you had any personal experiences with werewolves and vampires fighting one another in a game you played?

[Almarck]

I confess that I'm a bit surprised no one's mentioned Claws of the Unholy yet. ^^ If you want a vampire who can go toe-to-toe with Gauru-form, you could do worse than a Gangrel Sworn of the Axe; it's not exactly XP-cheap, but Protean 4 + decent Blood Potency + Coil of the Beast 4 makes for an undead Wolverine, even before adding any physical Disciplines.

Even granting that social-fu is the more default archetype of VtR characters, though, there's another dimension to this that I think is going under-mentioned: the market price of silver. Having mortal resources, even if they're tied up in property or favors or networks of blood dolls, means at least some opportunity to translate those resources into cash... and cash translates into precious metal, if you've got enough of it.

If the city's Damned really feel their unlives are at stake, you can imagine the call going out: "We. Need. Silver. Name your price." Two weeks later, their cash reserves are depleted and they're under favor debts to foreign Princes that will take half a century to pay off... but every vampire and ghoul is packing fully-automatic weapons and enough silver bullets to supply an infantry squad. (If the Prince is feeling *really* extravagant [or paranoid], s/he might even commission silver armor for the city's high-and-mighty; you can bite us, puppies, but you won't enjoy it very much.) Yes, the wolves move fast, and those Defense scores can be quite decent, but autofire and multiple attackers can compensate. Suddenly Iron Masters and any other wolves with Shaping/Technology gifts are in high demand, the better to sabotage the leeches' new toys (which of course means they're priority targets if the vampires find out who they are...)

By this same logic, any pack with any lick of sense will invest in fire weaponry... which is going to be loads cheaper than whatever the vampires can get for silver and doesn't have the tradeoff that it makes for poor weaponry. This is to say nothing about all of the pyromania causing effects that are basically a dime a dozen.


Oh and the silver armor is kinda... useless. It's not going to stop anything and is terrible for armor because it's a soft, precious metal that's way heavier than iron, with arguably no benefit. In fact, I'd argue the silver armor will be a terrible flop worse than the original Hulk Buster and get the owner killed so hard that it gets mocked for years down the line... (possibly because a rival sold the idea to him in the first place).


Seriously, it's safer not to go down the rabbit hole.

[Elfive]

Silver armour wouldn't do shit. That's not how their weakness works.

[Vent0]

Silver armour wouldn't do shit. That's not how their weakness works.

Well, Pure at least can't abide the touch of silver, right?

[FossMaNo1]

I agree with most of the above posters. Werewolf vs Vampire combat is something to be avoided by most vampires...it just doesn't usually work out well for them. Especially since there are some really nice werewolf Gifts and Merits that only enhance a werewolf pack's fighting abilities when attacking as a pack. A werewolf's strength is not in himself, but in his pack.

In general, however, a werewolf pack's only real reason to aggress against vampires is when said vampire is screwing around in the werewolf pack's territory. Again, this doesn't usually end well for a vampire.

[Almarck]

Well, Pure at least can't abide the touch of silver, right?

We're talking at most giving them a rash.

[AmusedByIrony]

By this same logic, any pack with any lick of sense will invest in fire weaponry... which is going to be loads cheaper than whatever the vampires can get for silver and doesn't have the tradeoff that it makes for poor weaponry. This is to say nothing about all of the pyromania causing effects that are basically a dime a dozen.

Multiple points here. Yes, investing in fire is a great countermeasure for vampire hunters, mortal and otherwise... but while sources of fire are cheaper and easier to find than sources of silver, I think you're conflating ease of acquisition with capacity to be weaponized. Fire is difficult to project at any kind of distance, esp. for mortals & Wolf-Blooded without overt supernatural powers, without a) attracting a lot of attention, b) endangering yourself and the people/buildings around you, and c) attracting even more attention by virtue of being unusually bulky, assuming some sort of flamethrower setup.

By contrast, silver bullets or small blades are easily concealed, attract no more attention than a gun or knife otherwise would, can be operated by Joe Mortal, and (with a decent rifle & scope) can reach out and touch wolves from a long ways away.

As for silver armor: here, too, I think you're leaping to a conclusion too quickly. Yes, silver is softer & weaker, and a point's worth off the armor or weapon rating is entirely warranted to reflect that. But it's still worked metal; if silver bullets & silver blades hold their shape well enough to do the job when subjected to the stresses of a gun barrel or a stabbing, silver armor is strong enough to offer some limited utility. And from WtF 2nd, pg. 101: "A non-damaging touch with silver doesn't cause damage, but causes intense pain so long as the werewolf remains in contact, and leaves lasting scars as if from aggravated wounds." I'd suggest the Agony Tilt could reflect what happens to a werewolf who tries to take a bite out of a silver-armored opponent; it *hurts,* and makes it that much easier for said opponent to exploit an opening.

RE: GMing - not yet! Most of my GMing experience has been with Pathfinder; in CoD I've done a mortals game and a Vamp game several years ago.

Edit: as for "down the rabbit hole" - if you mean "find some capital-A Answer as to 'who wins the battle of the splats?" then I couldn't agree more, and that's not what I'm going for. (I'm a Mage fan anyway, I have no dog in this fight! XD ) But the question "if your story slowly built up to a city-wide conflict between its Xs and its Ys, how would that play out, and what could each side bring to the table?" is an interesting one, if explored thoughtfully and with room for compelling character choices.

[nofather]

Multiple points here. Yes, investing in fire is a great countermeasure for vampire hunters, mortal and otherwise... but while sources of fire are cheaper and easier to find than sources of silver, I think you're conflating ease of acquisition with capacity to be weaponized. Fire is difficult to project at any kind of distance, esp. for mortals & Wolf-Blooded without overt supernatural powers, without a) attracting a lot of attention, b) endangering yourself and the people/buildings around you, and c) attracting even more attention by virtue of being unusually bulky, assuming some sort of flamethrower setup.

The Werewolf Gift Tongue of Flame allows you to create and control fire that's as easy to get as Protean 4. If you want to go further, a werewolf with Tongue of Flame and Catastrophe can drown a 20 mile area in fire.

By contrast, silver bullets or small blades are easily concealed, attract no more attention than a gun or knife otherwise would, can be operated by Joe Mortal, and (with a decent rifle & scope) can reach out and touch wolves from a long ways away.

Unless taken by surprise, in most forms werewolves have full Defense against Firearms. For that matter, since we're white rooming now, werewolves can just walk through the Shadow to a vampire's den, pop across with help from their totem or Moon Gift in the middle of the day, and saw their heads off one by one without ever having to deal with a ghoul or other guardian.

[AmusedByIrony]

The Werewolf Gift Tongue of Flame allows you to create and control fire that's as easy to get as Protean 4. If you want to go further, a werewolf with Tongue of Flame and Catastrophe can drown a 20 mile area in fire.

Unless taken by surprise, in most forms werewolves have full Defense against Firearms. For that matter, since we're white rooming now, werewolves can just walk through the Shadow to a vampire's den, pop across with help from their totem or Moon Gift in the middle of the day, and saw their heads off one by one without ever having to deal with a ghoul or other guardian.

Yep, and those wolves would become both prime assets and prime targets. But Catastrophe begs the question: if your shaman is willing to firebomb a 20-mile radius, why shouldn't every faction in the city unite to take you down? Theoretical capacity for destruction doesn't translate into applied force if you can't apply it precisely enough to make the political fallout worth the price.

And yes, Defense vs. firearms is a major advantage for the wolves. Tactic: lure them into enfilade and smother them with bullets, counting on weight of numbers; making new ghouls is cheaper and quicker than waiting for new Wolf-Blooded or Uratha to change and replenish the ranks. Counter-tactic: Shadow-side ambushes & daytime assaults, just as you suggest (or, alternatively, emulating a wolfpack and slowly nipping at the flanks of the Prince's criminal contacts, drying up a supply line here, attacking a shipment there, trying to draw the vamps out and pick them off a few at a time...)

*Counter*-counter-tactic: let the Circle or the Ordo devise a ritual to speak with the spirits of blood and fear and pain that follow vampires like smoke, and ask their price for standing guard on the Shadow-side...

[MCN]

I confess that I'm a bit surprised no one's mentioned Claws of the Unholy yet. ^^ If you want a vampire who can go toe-to-toe with Gauru-form, you could do worse than a Gangrel Sworn of the Axe; it's not exactly XP-cheap, but Protean 4 + decent Blood Potency + Coil of the Beast 4 makes for an undead Wolverine, even before adding any physical Disciplines.

Meh. If you want to do a good Gangrel shredder, forget the Coil. Go with protean claws and swarm form. That makes you pretty much immune to every kind of damage, save for an AoE Elemental gift, and you're dealing aggravated damage to pretty much an entire pack at once.

To put it simply, no one is bringing up most of a vampire's abilities, because that's just going to become a "whatever you can do, I can do better!" type situation, and that's just going to be silly. The real problem is racial bais. Well, game bias with supernatural races. Far too often, if you favor one race over another, then clearly, that race gets a multitude of advantages while the other tends to end up being strictly limited unnecessarily. Critical parts of one race or another gets downplayed to uselessness, while minor parts of the other get upplayed to trump card status. Happens all the time in these discussions.

[nofather]

Yep, and those wolves would become both prime assets and prime targets. But Catastrophe begs the question: if your shaman is willing to firebomb a 20-mile radius, why shouldn't every faction in the city unite to take you down? Theoretical capacity for destruction doesn't translate into applied force if you can't apply it precisely enough to make the political fallout worth the price.

You mean like the men wearing silver armor as they march around the city with their guns? Even in Texas that would raise eyebrows and have police arresting ghouls. And with Catastrophe it's just up to a 20 mile area, you can do it considerably smaller, like just dropping it on an Elysium. Though at that point you could just do it with Tongue of Flame.

And yes, Defense vs. firearms is a major advantage for the wolves. Tactic: lure them into enfilade and smother them with bullets, counting on weight of numbers; making new ghouls is cheaper and quicker than waiting for new Wolf-Blooded or Uratha to change and replenish the ranks. Counter-tactic: Shadow-side ambushes & daytime assaults, just as you suggest (or, alternatively, emulating a wolfpack and slowly nipping at the flanks of the Prince's criminal contacts, drying up a supply line here, attacking a shipment there, trying to draw the vamps out and pick them off a few at a time...)

Making new ghouls is easy, making them useful isn't. But why would the werewolves in your scenarios walk into traps when they have so many abilities that allow them to sense things like traps, ghouls, and vampires?

*Counter*-counter-tactic: let the Circle or the Ordo devise a ritual to speak with the spirits of blood and fear and pain that follow vampires like smoke, and ask their price for standing guard on the Shadow-side...

I think the Circle would have a better chance with that, but I don't think pain or fear spirits would really follow vampires around. Maybe fear from some with Nightmare but vampires don't generally feel pain themselves and their bite is painless and even pleasurable most of the time. Death spirits, maybe, or just vampire and leech spirits. Though of course taking down things isn't limited to humans and vampires and it's basically part of the werewolf lifestyle, spirits are not an exception.

Not counting niche things like the Eaters of the Dead or Lodge of the Willow Branch whose lives revolve around destroying vampires, if you're dealing with an entire domain of vampires causing you trouble, it's appropriate that the Ivory Claws would have the best way to deal with them. Their sacred hunt allows for them to sense those who have familial and communal bonds with their sacred prey. Any attempt to block or hinder a werewolf, or refuse to provide information, is penalized by the werewolf's Primal Urge. Using this a hunt led by an Ivory Claw would be able to easily suss out vampiric connections, shut them down and isolate them. Then let the werewolf side do their thing.

[AmusedByIrony]

Meh. If you want to do a good Gangrel shredder, forget the Coil. Go with protean claws and swarm form. That makes you pretty much immune to every kind of damage, save for an AoE Elemental gift, and you're dealing aggravated damage to pretty much an entire pack at once.

RAW, I can see where you're coming from RE: Swarm Form. RAI, I think I'd bar that combination in any game I run. For a Watsonian justification: unleashing the Claws needs a degree of mass and muscle behind them that tiny bats just can't muster. On the Doylist side: all-purpose aggravated damage to multiple targets at once is just too potent to hand out without some kind of resource cost. (Mages can do it, but only with a Reach for Advanced Scale and Mana.) Maybe dial it back to X Vitae for every turn the vampire wants to use the Claws while in Swarm Form, reflecting the additional unholy power s/he's bleeding into all those gnashing, flying jaws...

[Pale_Crusader]

Yep, and those wolves would become both prime assets and prime targets. But Catastrophe begs the question: if your shaman is willing to firebomb a 20-mile radius, why shouldn't every faction in the city unite to take you down? Theoretical capacity for destruction doesn't translate into applied force if you can't apply it precisely enough to make the political fallout worth the price...

Very valid point.

Fire bombing a 20 mile radius which is a major metropolitan area not already subject to carpet bombing is a great way to get a Time Master or Archmage any of the Seer of the Throne/Pentacle/Free Council that would likely not be too keen on allowing a breach of the various supernatural conspiracies that grievous. Not mentioning Demon, Angel, or God machine shenanigans to undo stuff like that too.

Also besides editing after the fact you have to keep in mind prophetic power that would get a tip off long before something that including Knowing Practice of Fate or Time Arcanums, the Omen Numina and Cahalith Prophetic Dreams?

While having to ST dozens if not s couple hundred of beings which would foresee the event and then intervene is challenging but would be accurate. How many other Uratha packs would try to stop you based off the idea "The herd must not know"?

[nofather]

Meh. If you want to do a good Gangrel shredder, forget the Coil. Go with protean claws and swarm form. That makes you pretty much immune to every kind of damage, save for an AoE Elemental gift, and you're dealing aggravated damage to pretty much an entire pack at once.

You just take less damage in Swarm Form, damage is reduced to 1, or 2 on an Exceptional Success. And you use the Strength and Brawl of the creature you've made, which in a size 0 or 1 creature is going to be small. Bats have a dicepool of 2, Rats have 1.

Swarm Form is better for harassment or utilitarian use than combat.