Werewolf as a Roleplay Game (making it click)

[Hawthorn]

As the first point of order I’d like to apologise about the length of this post, it’s a bloody essay. Still context is all important in regards to the point I’m trying to get across.

So, Werewolf as a roleplay game in the WoD (both classic and new). I don’t quite get it. At the same time, I know there is SOMETHING in this game that keeps me wanting to try and get it. Its kinda like a chipped nail or tooth, I can’t help but get snagged on it every time I’m reminded about it.

This feeling I get about the game I think is partially due to the general like I have for the WoD. The NWoD has not got a single game I dislike. I have issues with several of the lines (Werewolf, Changeling, Mage) and God knows I have my favourites (Vampire, Promethean, Mummy, Demon) but I don’t actively dislike any of them.

To focus this in a bit more on Werewolf I need to run through some contextual stuff about my history with the concept of a game about Werewolves:

Werewolf the Apocalypse:

So I started playing WoD games back in about 2004 on and off. Back then I was neck deep in Masquerade stuff. Found a ST that had been playing Masquerade since it started in the early 90’s. He likewise was basically pure Masquerade focused and was frankly disparaging of a lot of the other Classic World of Darkness game lines.

I think we are all shaped to a certain extent by our first ST in a system and game line. We grow beyond those initial views as we grow older, but in general they stick with us on some level. I certainly think this is true in my case on at least some level.

So in general this ST had little time for the other lines in the Classic World of Darkness past Masquerade. He liked bits of Mage, which is why I think I still have a curiosity about Ascension (only recently indulged during the M20 Kickstarter) and he liked bits of Demon the Fallen. Other than that he was pretty scornful of Wraith, Changeling (especially Changeling) and Mummy. Weirdly he gave Kindred of the East a sorta free pass, likely because it was a Masquerade add-on.

Anyway, he liked exactly one thing about Apocalypse, which was the whole Wyld, Wyver, Wyrm thing. So that bit of fluff came up in his games sometimes. Apart from that, he openly disliked the game. I was kinda indifferent about it and never really read up on it. Till this day I still giggle whenever anyone mentions Weresharks. I kinda give the weirder stuff a free pass as Classic World of Darkness was pretty “out-there” in some ways anyway.

Other than that, the whole general theme of “raging” against something just seemed kinda…immature to me (in the “Oh so mature mindset” of a 16 year old). Likewise, the whole “eco-warrior” vibe fell flat. I suspect having an ST talking about “furry superhero wolf-men” did not help. In general on that note, I have nothing against the furry subculture, but for a long time I had the Werewolf games painted as pretty much pandering to that subculture. Obviously I see in hindsight how irrational such an idea is, but it’s something I honestly believed for a few years.
This is the background I came from going into the NWoD.

Werewolf the Forsaken:

Unsurprisingly given my RP background I kinda missed Forsaken for a long time.

I did not even look at the NWoD (another thing my old ST was very negative about) until 2007. I got Requiem and was one of the few people who instantly liked it. Likewise, by this time I’d moved and met a whole new group of roleplayers. I got clued onto Mage the Awakening when an ST I know ran a year- long campaign I joined from the start.

Still Werewolf was kinda non-entity for me. They were creatures to keep Vampires in cities and give Spirit Mages a hard time that was about it.

Finally in 2010 I pick up the Forsaken book, largely as procrastination at the time to avoid working on my research degree. Finally some front line exposure to Werewolf, no more second-hand knowledge or other peoples opinion colouring my intake.

I found it bland, like “dry white toast” bland (and I’m a guy that found a lot of flavour in the 1.0 version of Requiem, that most people write off for being “bland”). After I got over the initial “new game” shine (and god do I fall to the “new game” shine often) I found the game instantly forgettable. Certain aspects appealed to me sure, the Mother Luna stuff fluff was all really interesting. I could take or leave the whole “father wolf on prehistoric earth” thing, but the Moon related stuff was interesting. The Hosts were interesting antagonists.

Other stuff, I just did not get.

Sure there are large Spiritual entities at their foundation but the Tribes being global institutions? Really? Honestly the idea of a large scale "structure" of Werewolves just does not in general work for me. I think it makes sense for Vampires, its got a precedent in fiction if nothing else. I can't recall any stories about multi-millionaire sauvé businessmen that are Werewolves, I can think of at least three that are Vampires. For me Werewolves are inherently a symbol of something so primal and chaotic that trying to apply a structure (beyond pack at least) to such a thing inherently damages its thematic resonance.

Gifts struck me as well…odd. Half the things they do I’ve seen basically no evidence for in pre-existing Werewolf mythology. In comparison to say Requiem were the core Disciplines are all pretty much doing something that Vampires do in mythology or fiction. Honestly, some of the power just seemed kinda present because they could be, I did not feel they added anything to the theme or tone of "Werewolf".

In general though, overall assessment was bland. I read a couple of the splat books on and off and that was about it.

Idigam Chronicles:

So when this got announced I was less then amazed. The Idigam were one of the less interesting parts of the Werewolf splat fluff that game out. The general idea of Luna’s mutant babies that got banished to the moon and hitched a ride back with Neil Armstrong did not really excite me. Likewise, when mentioned to my local roleplay group we all came the conclusion of Werewolves fighting Idigam on the dark side of the moon IN SPACE! (I blame the third Transformers movie).

Likewise, I’d moved again in the time between reading the old Forsaken core and the announcement of the Idigam Chronicles. So my local roleplay group had changed again. These guys had actually played about two separate long running Forsaken games in a LARP system. They’d had a mixed bag of experiences and come away a little negative about the game so say the least.

They found it all a bit to “hack and slash” for WoD and the idea of 9/10 feet tall wolf people slinging around great swords was a little too weird for them in the context of NWoD (our world darkly). Likewise, the general complaint that Werewolf is not really a game about Werewolves, but Shaman spirit cops has been voiced. Not to mention that old Harmony was a little too similar to the “path of do what I want” morally for some of them. Plus their ST was kinda blunt with his Spirit plot, meaning Spirit plot in general is kinda looked down upon as "lazy" or "polarizing" (either you can deal with Spirits or you can't and if you can't Spirit plot is not much fun) in our group.

To be fair I personally hold issue with how in tune with traditional Werewolf themes Forsaken is and how much “Werewolf” is in Forsaken as is. It seems to miss the anger/control issues (yes I know the game makes an effort in this regard, but I never felt it got the theme across adiquately) and body issues that are inherent underpinnings of the myth. Plus the idea of a fundamentally "primitive" or "primordial" acting out within a modern ordered civilization. Did not feel any of these themes were particularly present or resonant in Forsaken.

However, the previews start five weeks back and I decide to kill some time reading the articles. The first one does nothing for me beyond giving me an idea of a stronger central tone to the game. Basically the same move Blood and Smoke made for Vampire. Then the Harmony article happened and I got interested. Wolf-Blooded happened and I was impressed at that tonal shift and base alteration. Packs this week gave me hope that whole Totem thing would not such a baseline mechanical process (not to mention about as interesting as Wallpaper paste drying).
So yeah, despite all my misgivings and bad-experiences by proxy it’s got me interested.

The Point:

With all that history out of the way I can finally come to the point of this post/thread.

Namely that considering how “other” Werewolf has as a game been throughout both its runs to me as a player and ST I am what other people find so appealing, good, right and loveable about the game?

What is it about this game that makes it “click” for you?

More over what is it about the Idigam Chronicles (despite the limited information we have) that gives you hope that the game will continue to “work for” you?

Basically I’m curious to see what point’s people pull out in regards to their thoughts and experiences with the game. As I’m sure there will be many that have never occurred to me.

The closest someone's ever come to putting a different spin on Werewolf for me is looking at it through stories that having nothing to do with Werewolves. One person suggested looking at Tv shows like Sons or Anarchy or the Walking Dead and look at the groups there as "packs". I kinda got it better from that point of view. Only the regard to placing an emphasis in Werewolf on "In groups" and "out-groups". Though without the motorcycle gang motif (which I find a tired and dull sterotype) or zombies (though I do think Werewolf works excellently as a post-apocalyptic game, arguably better then a "modern" game).

Thanks beforehand for taking the time to read this and reply.

Hawthorn

[Ana Mizuki]

Forsaken 'clicks' to me for few reasons, namely how much it is about the wolves and the pack. Unlike in WtA, Forsaken packs are all the society the Uratha have, and at best their goverments are agreements between packs of a certain city.

Because there is no larger goverment or society looming over the Uratha, the packs essentially make their own rules and traditions, and build their own survival together. Uratha are not Warriors of anything, they are hunters and survialists. And all this really fits the stronger emphasis on the 'wolf' in the game than in Apocalypse.

[Charlaquin]

First of all, let me applaud this thread, because I think your experiences sum up a lot of people's feelings on the game, myself included. Personally, how I managed to make Forsaken lick for myself was to change the way I play it. (I've never ST'd Forsaken, because I know I wouldn't do the game justice). The only way I can enjoy playing forsaken is by playing a character who experiences her first change either in play, or very recently in her background. For me, it's not a werewolf game if my character does not have to struggle against her wolf nature. It is then placed on the experienced Uratha (who can be PCs, NPC's, or a combination if both) to teach my character that fighting her nature will cause it to fight back even harder against her, and the only way to reach live in Harmony with her self is to embrace what she is, with all it entails (which includes the spirit stuff). I enjoy playing out that inner struggle, eventually resolving it (usually somewhere around the climax of the Story or Chronicle), and ending her character development arc by finally becoming comfortable with it. At that point, when the character has become like the protagonists as described in the books, I tend to lose interest, so I generally plan for that to coincide with the end of the Story or Chronicle.

What gives me hope for the Idigam Chronicle is that from what I've seen, my personal play-style is going to be actively accommodated instead of being something I have to force to a degree. In fact, I have liked what I've seen in the development blogs, particularly of Harmony and Packs, that I am seriously considering STing a game of it for the first time for my group. I think the Idigam Chronicle is finally going to give me the tools to actually tell the kind of werewolf story I want to tell. It will be a very different take on Forsaken than any of the games I've played in, but I believe it will still be recognizable as Forsaken, spirit action and all. I can only hope as more details are revealed, the direction continues to evoke that feeling for me.

[zap rowsdower]

What is it about this game that makes it “click” for you?

That you can use it as a tool kit if you don't like everything about the setting. At this point our game resembles a promethean as my group has gutted the thing and stapled parts from other games onto it. [/QUOTE]

More over what is it about the Idigam Chronicles (despite the limited information we have) that gives you hope that the game will continue to “work for” you?

The phrase the wolf must hunt. Seems like they are going to put the wolf back into werewolf.

[nofather]

I suppose three things made it click for me. First was the spirit world. As a fan of psychological horror and alien, but not necessarily evil, landscapes, the idea that the scene of a murder can taint the surrounding area for decades, that something as simple as a new store opening can have a wild series of consequences, and someone walking into a room and staying there until they die because it's a waiting room (gone wrong) all appeal to me, and the Werewolves have the closest connection to the spirit, coming from it and all. Second, the enemies. Such a wide and varied bunch, from moral ambiguity to out and out malevolence, from people exactly like you (pure) to twisted versions of yourself (shartha, claimed) and everything else, just greatly appealing. And lastly, the instinct and passion. Werewolves aren't all immortals who have to be parasites off humanity. From the moment of your first change, you're full of great urges and senses, and from there you can really do whatever you want. You can throw yourself into humanity, being a leader of men and women and an exemplar of your kind, or use your powers over the spirit to hedge things your own way in other paths (the criminal or business sectors, or others). Or you could just toss it all away and romp around in the spirit like a big alpha monster. You can be brothers with your packmates, or a loner willing to help occasionally.

The only real draw for me for the Idigam Chronicles so far is the fixed up mechanics, which were really scattershot in Werewolf the Forsaken.
I never really cared how accurate to the life of a wolf the game was, or to some iconic werewolf movie, but having been on the boards a while I see a lot of people apparently really care a lot about it. So if it gets them more into the game, that's great, since popularity will likely equate to more profits and, thus, more books.

Personally if they were going to change the fluff I would have preferred an official Wolves of Outer Darkness, but they seem to be sticking mostly to Forsaken's setting.

[Ephsy]

Let me state explicitly what Apocalypse is about. It's about watching the world in it's final days and knowing it. Knowing that you are to blame for this, you and the generations before it. It's about lamenting that which hasn't been lost yet. Knowing that you were born too late to do anything to stop the inevitable demise of everything. When the Garou first changed, they go thru denial and isolation. Then they can quickly set into a long stage of rage, rage at the state of the world, at the responsibilities you have to shoulder, at your enemies. The bargaining step comes from the glimmer of hope for a new tomorrow, the many quest the last packs undertake in a last ditch attempt at saving the dying world. The Garou have a word for the next step: Harano - not unlike depression. But if they ever reach the last step? acceptance, they have been likely corrupted beyond redemption.

Forsaken isn't about that. Forsaken is about something more personal. Your turf, your friends, your family, and trying to balance your primal essence with a glimmer of humanity, because if you don't... who will?

[Christian A]

"You? Hunt us? Arrogant mongrels! You are too few; we are legions. You must be born to the flesh; we take the flesh at our whim. O you wolves howl your fear to the uncaring moon, for she has given you up to us!"

The world is in shadow. To one side stretches the forest, to the other the city. Your claws are stained with blood. Your senses whisper of prey that runs before you, and of predators who stalk even the likes of you. You hear the howls of your brothers and sisters. Luna rises. Your blood boils. It is time to hunt.


The world hates you. This isn't a figurative thing - the world doesn't acknowledge your innate right to exist. You're a half-flesh half-spirit abomination that shouldn't be. Shadowy entities hate and hunt you because you're what keeps them from building their own little hell-kingdoms in the world of man. Spiders and rats dig into people's brain and hearts, controlling them the way people drive cars. Wolves stalk your children and friends because of some sin your ancestors committed thousands of years and at least one apocalypse ago. People fear you, and would hate you if they knew what you are, if they knew you sometimes look at them and can't help thinking "food".

The world hates you, and does everything it can to kill you.

Doesn't that make you angry?

Show them how strong the Forsaken are. It is time to hunt.

-

I'll try and summarize what I like best about Werewolf.

First, Werewolf allows you to play heroes. This is what the Forsaken can be in your game. They're making a last stand against the countless enemies of the Forsaken, sacrificing their own future so that their loved ones can live free from physical harm or spiritual incursions. You can't win, but your efforts could mean that the people you love will live, for just one other day. That's powerful.

Secondly, Werewolf allows you to play monsters. As I said, werewolves are empowered, but they aren't always in control of their powers. A Forsaken can lose his temper, tearing enemies and innocents equally apart. Sooner or later, this will happen in every werewolf's life. Some werewolves might feel guilty about it. Others don't have the necessary compassion. When werewolves fall from grace, they fall hard.

The spirituality of Werewolf is also a selling point: It's awfully potent for a werewolf pack to be questing through invisible realms in which symbols and hidden meaning are more important than substance. The Shadow is a great source for wisdom, exploration and adventure as much as it is a source of Lovecraftian horrors and darkness.

The antagonists: Spiders that enter the human body via orifices, eat your brain and move your body around the way people drive cars. Spiritual manifestations of your own deepest fears and passions. Cunning, sly spirit beings hiding in the souls of your friends and loved ones, corrupting their minds and bodies from the inside. Raging fanatics in werewolf skin who want you dead because they can't overcome their own moral failings. Demon-gods from an age gone by.


I want to run Werewolf. In fact, I'm currently planning a Werewolf game set in Kosovo in 2008. I want to play a game about a pack that is internally divided at times, sometimes even to the point that blood is spilled and bones are broken and things that cannot ever be unsaid are said, while, when worst comes to worst, still keeping together and cooperating and operating in synergy like only a true pack of wolves can do. I want there to be a Rahu protagonists who is, at times, really fucking scared about being born and chosen to kill and slash and maim, while, on some level, accepting it as part of his destiny. I want there to be a PC whose loss of something precious to him defines much of his being, and is hurting, sometimes to the point that discarding his current life and going Bale Hound or Predator King seems like the only sensible choice to him, if it wasn't for his packmates. I want individual packmates to actively devote their lives to emulating the wolf-gods of yore. I want the pack to hunt with a pack totem, a being of the Spirit Wilds that will always be distant from the pack in that it's this unknowable spirit being that does not and cannot understand many of the concepts known to the minds of people, while at the same time grudgingly respecting the pack because of the blood they have shed together fighting on the same side.

And, hey, in case I haven't made it completely obvious, the player characters are monsters. Some by choice, some because they can't help themselves. This is a part of their nature that cannot be changed. The most peaceful, loving Uratha can turn into ten feets of raging wolf-death, and she might not be able to stop herself from doing so if circumstances are wrong. Werewolves feel nervous and claustrophobic in their human form (the sheep's skin) because that's where their strong natural senses and powers are denied to them. This is something that affects them all the time. They get angry easily - and it's not anger, it's wrath. We all occasionally feel like hitting someone. Well, in the case of the Forsaken, they feel like tearing someone's head off, and it's something they totally can and will do if pushed to it. And it's not just their terrible wrath, it's also the fact that they're literally higher on the food chain than us. You wake up next to your girlfriend in the morning, and she's still sleeping and looks so sweet and you just can't stop your instincts from telling you to think "food". There is nothing that tastes better to a werewolf than human. This is you (the PC you), everyday. It gets worse. You do things that upset the fragile balance between human, wolf and spirit, you start exhibiting traits of behaviour associated with movie wolves. Maybe you're in permanent Death Rage all full moon. Maybe you can't stop yourself from collecting the fingers of strangers. Werewolf can fall from grace, and they fall hard.

I want the pack to have human relatives, friends and foibles. I want the protagonists to have moments in which they feel innately superior to those weaker, fragile beings who're so very foolish and ignorant about the truths of the World of Darkness. I want them to be, at other times, jealous of humans, of being able to blend in with society, of not being burdened with the Hunt, of not knowing. At the same time, I want the characters to live in fear of what might happen to their loved ones if they lose control or if some part of the darkness decides to target those. (Innocent) people should have terrible things happening to them, too, seeing as this is a horror game. People die. They get turned crazy by spirits. They find themselves receptacles for spirits in their brain or rats eating their hearts.

What I also want is the game to feature packs of Pure werewolves who are, on some level, the same kind of dudes and girls as the protagonists, only that they have been put into an invariably different position by fate. I want the Pure to be this implacable antagonist that cannot be argued with. They come only to spout propaganda, hurt your loved ones, kill you and/or oppose everything the protagonists are fighting for. I want the Pure to be utterly merciless in their actions, because mercy is not something that can ever have a place in their society.

There should be spirit antagonists in the game. Many of them should have sprung into being based on the dreams, wishes, aspirations and fears of humans and werewolves, including the pack. Spirit encounters are never random. You don't get to face some anger spirit, you'll face the embodied wrath of a teenager about to go on a killing spree in his school. The murder spirit trying to rip your guts out is an idealized reflection of that serial killer who slaughtered a two digit number of people in the city decades ago. The lust spirit trying to seduce you - it's your own repressed sexuality, trying to find a release.

I want there to be things like a school haunted by the embodied (in the spirit sense) Fear of that teacher who once raped and murdered a student, or a dude who is so overwhelmed by Wrath possessing him that he cannot see any course of action other than what the spirit possessing him tells him to do. There should be tangible spirits of Apathy haunting homes for the elderly. Some of these spirits can and should only be fought by venturing into the nightmare of that other world and sticking your claws into them until they stop moving. Others might require the Ithaeur of the pack investigating the innate rules and laws govering spirits. And others might be exorcized by little more than the right words to their host.

It's not a proper Werewolf game if it doesn't have rats squirming around in remote, hidden places, trying to open pandora's box and let their diseases reign free in the world. There should also be a place for spiders hiding behind people's eyes, taking on the packmates individually, using fire and poison and silver. And there should be a Cahalith of the pack having nightmares about that Pangaean demon-god, the one trapped below the earth aeons ago, arising to take its place.

That's Werewolf: the Forsaken.

[Ashenrogue]

As a setting, and as fluff werewolf has always clicked with me. As an actual game...Ehhh, get back to me once the Idigam Chronicles are out.

[strider1276]

I want to be clear that this is all just my personal opinion, and is not anything "official" (I'm still new, I don't think they'd let me do anything official yet) or anything of the sort. I will cheat a little on the one question, but I'll call that out. Still, this is all just my personal view and opinion. Disclaimer out of the way, here we go...

What is it about this game that makes it “click” for you?

The game clicked for me from the outset, actually. I was a big Werewolf: the Apocalypse fan, so of course I was excited to see what the "new" Werewolf game would be like. I saw the teasers for the game, and immediately fell in love with the Hunters in Darkness. An entire tribe that embodies the scary predator in the shadows? Yes, please!

For me, and how I was at the time (and continue to be), Forsaken just fit more of what I was looking for in a game about werewolves. I was less interested in the grand, cosmic scale that Apocalypse has, and more interested in the personal stories. What makes these werewolves tick? Why do they do what they do? That sort of thing.

More over what is it about the Idigam Chronicles (despite the limited information we have) that gives you hope that the game will continue to “work for” you?

Here is where I'm both cheating a bit, and must answer in vagaries to avoid spoilers.

I think the setting has continued to be scary. I just got to read some tribal write ups yesterday, and the Hunters scare the shit out of me. So of course I want to play one. Er, again. For the third time. (What can I say, I like the Meninna!) The mechanics are, I think, much tighter. Chris did an excellent job with the Gifts, for instance. I'll admit I'm a bit biased because I wrote a chunk of it (or am writing, would be more appropriate to say as we're not at final drafts yet). But I'll stand by my statements.

As much as I already loved Werewolf: the Forsaken, I am actively chomping at the bit to playtest this thing. Any game that makes me want to play it is a good thing. A game that I already love making me want to play it more? I'm sold.

Basically I’m curious to see what point’s people pull out in regards to their thoughts and experiences with the game. As I’m sure there will be many that have never occurred to me.

The closest someone's ever come to putting a different spin on Werewolf for me is looking at it through stories that having nothing to do with Werewolves. One person suggested looking at Tv shows like Sons or Anarchy or the Walking Dead and look at the groups there as "packs". I kinda got it better from that point of view. Only the regard to placing an emphasis in Werewolf on "In groups" and "out-groups". Though without the motorcycle gang motif (which I find a tired and dull sterotype) or zombies (though I do think Werewolf works excellently as a post-apocalyptic game, arguably better then a "modern" game).

The thing here is that Forsaken is very much "Us" and "Them." The pack is the "us" part, and everyone else? "Them."

For instance, I have a lot of friends, but I have one group of friends where we just click with one another. We have our in-jokes and so forth, and we say things to one another that, when we say them, they're funny. Everyone knows that nobody really means those things. Especially because, if someone outside of our group said those things, any one of us would be all over that person in a heartbeat.

That's a pack. They'll give each other shit all day long. They'll argue. They may even fight (and for the werewolf members of the pack, yeah that may well happen due to Rage). But at the end of the day, no matter what is tearing at them from inside, they'll stand shoulder-to-shoulder against any external threat.

I like that. While I certainly enjoy Vampire from a "let's be a conniving bastard" angle (that's pretty much my default mode of playing that game), what I like about Werewolf is that, no matter how much the world hates and fears you, you have someone there for you. You have people to watch your back, help defend you, pick you up when you fall, and share in your successes. For me, that's a good thing to have in a game.

Those are just my thoughts, anyway. Take them for what you will.

[Charlaquin]

I hear a lot of talk of Heros, and glory, and fighting against insurmountable odds because if you don't, who will, and... Absolutely none of that resonates as "werewolf" to me. That's why I've never been able to enjoy playing it as one of the protagonists the books describe. Sure, being that doomed hero can be fun, but when I want that, I play Hunter. When I look to werewolf, I want to be a wretched shell of a woman, who has given up everything to protect her loved ones; not from some alien threat from the shadow world, but from the monster she becomes when the moon is right. I don't want to be afraid of the evil spirits that are out there, I want to be afraid of the wild beast inside myself. That's the biggest problem with werewolf for me, is that werewolf has the potential to be the best personal horror game in the entire World of Darkness, and it choses instead to focus on external horror. Don't get me wrong, the antagonists are cool, but to me they will never be as scary as the wolf within. And I get that Forsaken has its own identity and the werewolf game I really want would be too far removed from that identity, it would basically be a different game. But if I have to play a super hero, at least let me be Bruce Banner and not Tony Stark.

[Christian A]

... luckily, Werewolf is really not a game whose horror is entirely external, or where you play super heroes.

[Hawthorn]

Its interesting to see not only the responses people have given so far, but the TYPE of response given about Werewolf as a game so far.

People seem kninda well...passionate about Werewolf. They engage with the emotional statement of the game and view it through that lens. Ephsy, Christian A and Charlaquin all gave very interesting replies seated in an emotional response. Another good example of this is the opening quote on the TvTropes entry for Werewolf the Apocalypse. When people make statements about this game its clear that is means something to them.

I like that. Its good that people care, that they engage with something on a deeper level. I can also perhaps see why its one of the things I never got about Werewolf. Firstly, as I mentioned I never felt inspired by Werewolf when reading it. Secondly, I guess I'm not the most emotionally driven roleplayer. I fully believe and support the idea that a good PC needs to be emotionally complex and engaged with on an emotional level, however, I think Werewolf involves a peak of emotion I don't usually associate with my roleplay.

Once again, to go back to other WoD games I enjoy.

Vampire has a lot of pathos and tragedy in it but I've always seen it as a fundamentally intellectual game. Its about trying to stay rational in the face of the completely chaotic beast inside you to a certain degree (though secondary to the staying human in face of being a monster theme). Its also very much a game of planning and scheming and staying one step ahead of the competition.

Promethean is about learning to feel almost. Mimicing human responses to things, faking what you feel until its genuine. Its about wondering what empathy is, then why its important and then how its used and for what purpose. Yes Promethean's feel extremes of emotion in Torment and act out on that. I've always rationalized that response in relation to a child acting out at the world that hurt it. For some that's a temper tantrum that breaks their surroundings, for others its spiteful behavior at those that hurt them for others its a detachment from the source of that pain. Basically I can rationalize the emotional extremes involved.

Mummy like Promethean is a process of discovering emotion. The only difference is that Mummy's are rediscovering their morals, feelings and self while Promethean are building all that from scratch. The journey of Apotheosis is a human journey, one that engages with the emotions of the Mummy in question and makes him examine them, but its got a religious and intellectual element as well.

Demon, more so then even Vampire, I think is a game about planning and schemes and counter-ploys and cons. Demons can be emotional, despite their absolute ability to hide what they are feeling from outside observation and I like that in many cases emotion is the catalyst for a Demon to fall. However, from reading Demon I never got a particularly "emotional" feel from them, they have the human spectrum of emotion sure, but I felt the emotions at play in Demon are very much a secondary theme to intellectual exercise of staying one step ahead of the God-Machine.

Anyway, to sum-up that point. I think I engage with roleplay in a more intellectual way then emotional way. As I've mentioned I feel the emotional element is important and has its place, but its not my primary draw. So maybe that's one reason Werewolf has never clicked for me, since it seems to be about well being angry at various thing (yourself, the world) and afraid of various things (yourself, the world).

The other thing that is brought up a lot by people giving examples is the hero's thing. Charlaquin already brought this up, but to kinda reinforce the point a little. Hero's are fun to play, we all enjoy a good hero's tale. Its not really what I come to the World of Darkness for though. For me the WoD is full of flawed people making the best choices then can given the circumstances they are forced into or find themselves in. Some might be "heroic" in that they try and do the right thing or act as the "white knight" or "moral exemplar" but for me 9 times out of 10 these character end up tarnished by the world and compromising their own morality. Vampire is of course, all about this and I am not saying I want every WoD game to be Vampire. I like that Promethean, for example, can have genuine innocence and naivety in it and can do such a wonderful job of showing what happens when innocence is ripped away from a person.

Feeding into this is the idea of moral ambiguity. I can see an argument that the Forsaken are not necessarily the "good guys", I can't really see an argument that any of the antagonists could be seen as the "good guys". The Pure maybe, in their most moderate form and if you squint slightly. Everything else the Forsaken fight are so inherently evil or alien (or both) that they boarder on being a little 1-note as villains for me. Once again to contrast with other game lines: Vampire has a similar problem, but VII and the Brood can be made sympathetic and legitimate with enough work on the ST's part. Prometheans Pandorans are monsters, but once again their inherently flawed nature can be played up and I found the write up for the Centimentani to be the best of any antagonist group in any of the NWoD game lines. Mummy has the Shaunkhsen who are monstrous but inherently tragic and do have a legitimate moral greavence with the protagonists, the Deceived are possibly more in the "morally right" category then the Arisen. Demon's the odd one out really, Angels are as implacable as Spirits, but a Demon can at least make one fall and Exiles present and interesting "moral grey" and "third path" between the groups.

Furthermore, the term "heroic" is not something I apply to the idea of a Werewolf in my head. Can a Werewolf do heroic deeds? Maybe. However, the whole idea of "fighting the good fight" or "persevering in the face of sure defeat" or "clinging to the last shred of hope" is more a set of troupes I apply to old heroic saga's like the Norse Myths of Ragnarok or the 300 Spartans against the Persians. Its not something that "clicks" in my mind as associated withe Werewolves in any way. Short of making Viking Werewolves with great axes and then everything gets way, way to weird for me to see any of it happening in the World of Darkness as I imagine it (our world reflected darkly).

For me Werewolf is about internal control and the lose of control over the self. In this way I see it as a metaphor for body issues really, its about loosing control over your physical self (the changes it inflicts on your body). This is coupled with a fear of madness and the the psychological sense of self (the loss of the rational and moral self to animal instinct). Like Charlaquin has said, Werewolf stories function primarily on internalized horror, where the self becomes the other and is the source of fear (in a modern day sense The Hulk does provide an excellent touchstone for reference). Everything I've read about Apocalypse and Forsaken kinda overlooks what I consider to be a central set of themes in favour of externalizing the horror into Lovecraftian entities from another realm. I kinda find this the largest stumble of Werewolf as a game.

Now, I can see how a game involving the sort of themes I am talking about could be well...hard to play and frankly not necessarily a lot of fun. So I can see why those have not been emphasized. In general I guess I could do with having a bit of Promethean's themes of isolation and control issues injected into Werewolf.

[Charlaquin]

... luckily, Werewolf is really not a game whose horror is entirely external, or where you play super heroes.

This is contrary both to my experiences playing Werewolf, and several of the reports here of what makes the game click for people.

[Christian A]

Didn't see anything about playing superheroes in anyone's post other than that of the first poster; and I'm sure you understand that this is not the way the game is intended to be played.

When I said

"First, Werewolf allows you to play heroes. This is what the Forsaken can be in your game. They're making a last stand against the countless enemies of the Forsaken, sacrificing their own future so that their loved ones can live free from physical harm or spiritual incursions. You can't win, but your efforts could mean that the people you love will live, for just one other day. That's powerful."

What I mean is, taken in the context of this:

"Secondly, Werewolf allows you to play monsters. As I said, werewolves are empowered, but they aren't always in control of their powers. A Forsaken can lose his temper, tearing enemies and innocents equally apart. Sooner or later, this will happen in every werewolf's life. Some werewolves might feel guilty about it. Others don't have the necessary compassion. When werewolves fall from grace, they fall hard."

, werewolves are heroes in the classical, mythical sense. They aren't heroes because they're lawful good. They're heroes because they do grand, terrible things.

[Christian A]

Anyway, to sum-up that point. I think I engage with roleplay in a more intellectual way then emotional way. As I've mentioned I feel the emotional element is important and has its place, but its not my primary draw. So maybe that's one reason Werewolf has never clicked for me, since it seems to be about well being angry at various thing (yourself, the world) and afraid of various things (yourself, the world).

In the context of a Promethean game that's about the experience of being born and experiencing the world from the point of view of a child; and Mummy, whose narrative focus is old age; Werewolf is about growing up. Werewolf is about puberty.

There's the coarse analogies - you "change", you become stronger, hairier, angrier. You have to deal with this newfound strength and also the emotions raging through your body.

There's the coming of age thing - you are taking over from dad's responsibilities, you are growing up, you are learning what it is to be a man, you are finding your pack, defining your new role in life; Werewolf is also about refusing to take the path of least resistance represented by the choices the Pure and the Bale Hounds make; it's about growing and finding yourself as a person - and the many, many ways this can go wrong.

The other thing that is brought up a lot by people giving examples is the hero's thing. Charlaquin already brought this up, but to kinda reinforce the point a little. Hero's are fun to play, we all enjoy a good hero's tale. Its not really what I come to the World of Darkness for though. For me the WoD is full of flawed people making the best choices then can given the circumstances they are forced into or find themselves in. Some might be "heroic" in that they try and do the right thing or act as the "white knight" or "moral exemplar" but for me 9 times out of 10 these character end up tarnished by the world and compromising their own morality. Vampire is of course, all about this and I am not saying I want every WoD game to be Vampire. I like that Promethean, for example, can have genuine innocence and naivety in it and can do such a wonderful job of showing what happens when innocence is ripped away from a person.

Werewolves are Byronic heroes; they're also heroes in the classical sense. Werewolf takes the more cynical approach to classic heroes, which is that they're kinda jerks, and they fight over pride, and while they accomplish great things, it's just as often "great" as in "great and terrible" than as in "great and good." Werewolves as classical heroic archetypes includes characters like Achilles and Oddyseus and Beowulf. Hercules killed his wife and kids in a fit of anger, after all.

Now, I can see how a game involving the sort of themes I am talking about could be well...hard to play and frankly not necessarily a lot of fun. So I can see why those have not been emphasized.

True. This is, in fact, the main reason as for why Ethan Skemp chose not to make Werewolf: the Forsaken the same game as Vampire: the Requiem.