Character, Tribal and Auspice gift transfer from 1st to 2nd edition.

[Story Letter]

@Acrozatarim your opinion is highly appreciated.

Hello all, for some time now I was trying to transfer old characters from the old Forsaken version to the new one and I found out in awe how wondrfully the new system changed them, in such a manner that they looked like completely different characters.
There were 2 issues though, one was the merits that don't exist in the 2nd edition and the missing gift lists from two wonderful supplements, Lore of the Forsaken and Rage- Player's guide.

I have an example character a Blood Talon Rahu so here are the issues for this naughty boy:

A) He used to have the physical merit strong back, that it does not exist in the second edition, he can still keep the merit for the same benefit, which might not be good enough? Remove it completely and give him another merit? Or reinvent the system of the old merit?
How would you rework this merit?

B) Now the same dood used to have gifts from the Warrior Moon and Battle gift lists. These lists are problematic for the 2nd edition and I gave a thought to change them to Gift of the Killer Moon and Gift of the Kinslayer since the Blood Talons have werewolves as their favored prey and a gift that allows them to hunt and kill their kin more easily.
Now the thing is that for the moon gift is easy to choose the single renown dot per gift system, but for this special Kinslayer Gift which represents a deeper bond with the Tribal Totem what should I do? Use the same system with the Moon Gifts, or handle it like just another Shadow Gift and break it to Renown facets?

Thank you very much.

[Malus]

Something like Form Lock would be Cunning (number of turns locked = Cunning);
Patronless Pack would be Wisdom (I'd probably make this cost 5 essence, take 5s and be contested by Resistance+Rank of the totem);
Return to Birth would be Honor (Gauru also being exempt);
Human Health would be Purity (number of turns afflicted = Purity; Gauru being exempt);
Object of Piercing Clarity would be Glory, and I'd give the Herd a bonus to lunacy equal to your Glory.

Visage of Fenris sounds like Glory;
Worry the Prey's Heels could cause leg-wrack also in Honor;
Savaging would be reflexive and last 1 turn and add Wisdom to the damage;
Primal Anger sounds like Purity, add PU to damage.
Heart Stopping Howl sounds like Cunning, make people who hear it contest or take Cowed.

Warrior's Insight could augment the Tenacity Blessing by 1 turn per Purity;
Battle Mind could apply Purity as a penalty to mentally/emotionally influence the Uratha and to actions that aren't specifically aimed at combat;
Hobbling Gaze could instead put a tilt on someone from a distance;
Might of the Full Moon would have the same pre-requisites.
Bloodletting is reflexive in use after an attack, applies the Bleeding Tilt, exceptional successes would turn it into a severe hemorrhage which would be lethal damage instead:

The character bleeds profusely from an open wound. If
she doesn’t staunch the blood flow, she may soon pass out
from shock and blood loss.
Effect: Bleeding characters suffer a –1 wound penalty (or
have existing wound penalties increased in severity by +1).
Additionally, each turn that she remains bleeding, she suffers
one automatic point of bashing damage.
Causing the Tilt: Firearms or bladed weapons that score
more damage in a single attack than the victim’s Stamina
can inflict this Tilt.
Ending the Tilt: If the character takes a turn to apply
pressure and some sort of cloth or tie a tourniquet around
the bleeding limb, she can stop the flow of blood and end the
Tilt. Any form of accelerated healing, even a single point of
bashing damage, will stop the bleeding as well. For obvious
reasons, the undead are immune to this Tilt.

Strong Back seems easily enough to translate; Or apply Sanctity of Merits.

[Story Letter]

Malus that's a good start, thank you.
But let's take this one step further and make it more 2nd editioning.

Umm, lets paint it like this:

Gift of the Kinslayer
Slayer Wolve's Presence (Honor): Spend one essence (reflexive) and roll Presence + Expression + Honor. Any werewolf who sees the gift user rolls Composure + Primal Urge gains the Cowed condition which cannot be resolved as long as the victim is in the user's presence.
Exceptional Success: The victim enters basu-im and runs away from the gift user. Victims allready in basu-im instinctively run away.

Savaging (Cunning): Spend one essence (reflexive) everytime you cause a tilt with a bite or claw attack, the tilt cannot be healed until the end of the scene. This gift does not affect health levels.

Primal Instinct (Purity): The werewolf may use the Urshul ability Weaken the Prey, an extra number of times in a scene equal to the Purity Renown, the werewolf may use the gift in Urhan, Urshul and Gauru.

Maim Spirit (Wisdom): The werewolf growls and spend 1 essence point (instant) and roll Manipulation + Occult + Wisdom Vs Composure+ Primal Urge, success means that the victim gains the Essence Overload Condition
Exceptional Success: The victim gains the gift user's Wisdom to stamina rolls for the scene.

Howl of the Slayer (Glory): Howl, Spend two essence (instant) and roll Presence + Intimidation + Glory - the highest Stamina among Listeners. All enemies gain one lethal damage per success rolled and lose Regeneration for the scene, wounds inflicted within the same scene cannot be healed. The gift may affect a victim once per day and counts as a breaking point towards spirit with a penalty equal to the victims affected, maximum -5.
Exceptional Success: Victims gain a tilt at STeller's choice.

Gift of the Killer Moon
Killer's Fervor: Increase Tenacity Blessing by 1 turn per Purity (thank you)
Blood Red Haze: Add purity in all mental resistance against powers that might hinder the werewolve's killing spree. Activates automatically when in Gauru. (thank you)
Right Behind You: Spend one essence, for the duration of the Siskur Dah the prey loses one speed per Purity Renown when senses the werewolf is close (awoooooo). (thank you)
Bloodletting: Spend one essence per attack, applies the Bleeding Tilt. Against werewolves, bleeding lasts for a turn per Purity Renown and cannot be healed during bleeding rounds (thank you).
Blood Red Moon: The werewolf may benefit from Advanced Actions Rule when using Down and dirty combat in Gauru, and may use it even on powerful enemies, The effects of the gift are permanent but don't work while in basu-im.

[Seidmadr]

Howl of the Slayer (Glory): Howl, Spend two essence (instant) and roll Presence + Intimidation + Glory - the highest Stamina among Listeners. All enemies gain one lethal damage per success rolled and lose Regeneration for the scene, wounds inflicted within the same scene cannot be healed. The gift may affect a victim once per day and counts as a breaking point towards spirit with a penalty equal to the victims affected, maximum -5.
Exceptional Success: Victims gain a tilt at STeller's choice.

I dunno. That seems really powerful, considering that regeneration is the primary defensive benefit Uratha have. I'd either block completely for a few turns, or have the successes be "phantom damage" that has to be healed before any real damage can be handled.

[Story Letter]

I dunno. That seems really powerful, considering that regeneration is the primary defensive benefit Uratha have. I'd either block completely for a few turns, or have the successes be "phantom damage" that has to be healed before any real damage can be handled.

I know my friend, I am just tossing ideas in order to improve them, with your precious help of course.

Another idea I had about the Glory facet for Kinslayer gift was this:

Slayer's Arsenal: The werewolf ignores one health level from his opponent for every dot of Glory Renown he has, the victim does not lose the health levels permanently, and other werwolves still need to do the normal health level damage to kill him, but the user of the gift can kill the victim by doing less damage than his siblings, giving the killing blow more easily. The effects of the gift are permanent.

Another idea for
Pull of the Killer Moon: When the werewolf enters Gauru spend 2 essence, for the duration of Rage.
Increase in speed and initiative against the given target equal to Purity Renown and the victim loses that much speed and initiative, the victim may not use merits that increase speed and initiative further. The gift user ignores victim defense for one point per purity renown and completely if he attacks from side or rear position. The gift activates at no cost when in Basu-im.

[Acrozatarim]

@[B][URL="http://forum.theonyxpath.com/member/1757-acrozatarim"]
A) He used to have the physical merit strong back, that it does not exist in the second edition, he can still keep the merit for the same benefit, which might not be good enough? Remove it completely and give him another merit? Or reinvent the system of the old merit?
How would you rework this merit?

Honestly, I'd just refund him the XP for it and let him spend it on something else.

B) Now the same dood used to have gifts from the Warrior Moon and Battle gift lists. These lists are problematic for the 2nd edition and I gave a thought to change them to Gift of the Killer Moon and Gift of the Kinslayer since the Blood Talons have werewolves as their favored prey and a gift that allows them to hunt and kill their kin more easily.
Now the thing is that for the moon gift is easy to choose the single renown dot per gift system, but for this special Kinslayer Gift which represents a deeper bond with the Tribal Totem what should I do? Use the same system with the Moon Gifts, or handle it like just another Shadow Gift and break it to Renown facets?

Thank you very much.

So, first up, I'd have a look at whether the gifts in question offer anything meaningfully different from what the character can get via existing 2nd edition Gifts - my first port of call would be to refund him the XP on those Gifts and let him either spend it on what he wants, or if you want to be more restrictive, just on the more combat-related Gifts like Rage and Strength.

If you do still want to convert Battle across, it's a Shadow Gift; there are no Gifts that have restrictions on access via Tribe.

[Story Letter]

Honestly, I'd just refund him the XP for it and let him spend it on something else.



So, first up, I'd have a look at whether the gifts in question offer anything meaningfully different from what the character can get via existing 2nd edition Gifts - my first port of call would be to refund him the XP on those Gifts and let him either spend it on what he wants, or if you want to be more restrictive, just on the more combat-related Gifts like Rage and Strength.

If you do still want to convert Battle across, it's a Shadow Gift; there are no Gifts that have restrictions on access via Tribe.

Thank you thank you very much, response greatly appreciated.
Its just that the character sheet looks so empty on the gift part after the transfer and feels a bit odd for such an old charachter. It troubled me alot.

And yes its challenging to convert gift lists from 1st to 2nd edition, I have made 2 for the Pure and this is the first time I do for the forsaken.
My goal is to transform the battle to the kinslayer in order to make blood talons more fearful to their own kin, so a battle gift list is not a good option.
It must be something that adds to the mood of the 2nd edition
.

[Story Letter]

Gift of the Killer Moon Final

•Murderous Attunement: add purity to initiative, spend Essense (R) to pre-empt action.
•• Slayer's Tenacity: Increase the times you may use Auspice ability by Purity renown in a scene.
••• Coming for you: (This Facet can only be activated when the Rahu gains the Siskur-Dah Condition.):1E, Any time someone tries to hinder the Rahu in order to prevent him reach his victim the target of the siskur dah loses one speed per purity if trying to escape, or one die from all attack rolls if he tries to damage the Rahu while struggling against secondary targets.
••••Death's Grip: Spend one Essence (R), for the rest of the scene all opponents gain penalty equal to Purity in order to escape the werewolve's grip, if the werewolf is in a form that uses fangs or claws to state a grapple the victim gains damage with every attempt, successful or not, equal to twice the damage modifier of the werewolve's natural weapons,also claws and fangs do twice their damage modifier in overpower maneuvers.
•••••Rage of the Killer Moon : Spend two Essence points (R) per turn, add Purity to attack rolls that ignore defense and dodge rolls, if a superatural power is increasing the enemy defese the rahu ignores one point per purity renown, he still adds his purity on the attack roll.

[Malus]

That's a very rough draft, at maximum.

[Story Letter]

That's a very rough draft, at maximum.

Explain what do you mean

[Malus]

Explain what do you mean

Here's a bit of redlines for you then.

Gift of the Killer Moon Final

•Murderous Attunement: add purity to initiative, spend Essense (R) to pre-empt action. (Under which circumstances? What's the limit?)
•• Slayer's Tenacity: Increase the times you may use Auspice ability by Purity renown in a scene. (Did you mean turns? Did you mean Blessing?)
••• Coming for you: (This Facet can only be activated when the Rahu gains has the Siskur-Dah Condition.):1E, Any time someone tries to hinder the Rahu in order to prevent him reach his victim the target of the siskur dah loses one speed per purity if trying to escape, or one die from all attack rolls if he tries to damage the Rahu while struggling against secondary targets. (Hinder how? Physically? If I shout the Rahu to "please stawp!" I'll be lamed? It penalizes damage? Like Armor, instead of Dicepools?)
••••Death's Grip: Spend one Essence (R), for the rest of the scene per turn all opponents anyone gain suffer a penalty equal to Purity in order to escape the werewolvef's grip, if the werewolf is in a form that uses fangs or claws to starte a grapple the victim gains suffers damage with every attempt, successful or not (???), equal to twice the damage modifier of the werewolvef's natural weapons, also claws and fangs do twice their damage modifier in overpower maneuvers.
•••••Killing Rampage: Spend two Essence points (R) per turn, the Rahou may opt to choose one of the following: make two attacks in one enemy, or add Purity to his attack dice pool and attack multiple enemies as if using firearms strafe rules (???), any fighting merit may be used normally if its requierement are fullfilled. The gift may be used with brawl or meelee.

[Story Letter]

Here's a bit of redlines for you then.

First and foremost I would like to make clear that I am not writting a book.
I knew that my latest post would create questions and I do it on purpose for interactive reasons.
So here we go

•Murderous Attunement: The Rahu gains +1 to initiative permanently for every point of purity and may opt to act first by reflexively spending one essence point in case he loses initiative.

•• Slayer's Tenacity (re-edit) : The Rahu may use his Auspice Benefit additional times in a chapter equal to his Purity renown. The effects of the gift are permanent.
You where right thought that the Auspice Benefit( not blessing) is written down at the character sheet as Auspice Ability. My bad.

••• Coming for you: This Facet can only be activated when the Rahu gains the Siskur-Dah Condition, the Rahu may spend one essence point and for the duration of the siskur dah, when anyone or anything becomes a physical obstacle between him and his prey, which means that the Rahu may have to fight the target that prevents him from reaching his victim, then the siskur dah target prey loses one point of speed for every dot of Purity the Rahu has if he decides to escape, or one die from his attack dice pools for every dot of Purity the Rahu has if he decides to take part in the fight, e.g. shooting in the crowd while the Rahu tries to remove away the physical obstacle.

••••Death's Grip: Spend one Essence, for the rest of the scene anyone that has been grappled by the Rahu gains his Purity Renown as a penalty to his overpowering maneuvers against him. If the Rahu is using his natural weapons, aka claws and fangs, while grappling, they gain double damage bonus (e.g. +4 instead of +2 with fangs in urshul), even if the victim succeeds in an overpower maneuver it still takes damage equal to double the Rahu's natural weapon modifier.


•••••Killing Rampage: Yes the gift is using the firearms autofire rules, for melee and brawl purposes on multiple targets with Purity renown as bonus dice.

Yup my bad my bad.

Well, happy now?

[Malus]

First and foremost I would like to make clear that I am not writting a book.
I knew that my latest post would create questions and I do it on purpose for interactive reasons.
So here we go

•Murderous Attunement: The Rahu gains +1 to initiative permanently for every point of purity and may opt to act first by reflexively spending one essence point in case he loses initiative.

•• Slayer's Tenacity (re-edit) : The Rahu may use his Auspice Benefit additional times in a chapter equal to his Purity renown. The effects of the gift are permanent.
You where right thought that the Auspice Benefit( not blessing) is written down at the character sheet as Auspice Ability. My bad.

••• Coming for you: This Facet can only be activated when the Rahu gains the Siskur-Dah Condition, the Rahu may spend one essence point and for the duration of the siskur dah, when anyone or anything becomes a physical obstacle between him and his prey, which means that the Rahu may have to fight the target that prevents him from reaching his victim, then the siskur dah target prey loses one point of speed for every dot of Purity the Rahu has if he decides to escape, or one die from his attack dice pools for every dot of Purity the Rahu has if he decides to take part in the fight, e.g. shooting in the crowd while the Rahu tries to remove away the physical obstacle.

••••Death's Grip: Spend one Essence, for the rest of the scene anyone that has been grappled by the Rahu gains his Purity Renown as a penalty to his overpowering maneuvers against him. If the Rahu is using his natural weapons, aka claws and fangs, while grappling, they gain double damage bonus (e.g. +4 instead of +2 with fangs in urshul), even if the victim succeeds in an overpower maneuver it still takes damage equal to double the Rahu's natural weapon modifier.


•••••Killing Rampage: Yes the gift is using the firearms autofire rules, for melee and brawl purposes on multiple targets with Purity renown as bonus dice.

Yup my bad my bad.

Well, happy now?

1) Even Celerity has a maximum number of times such an ability can be used, otherwise the reflexive thing means you'd Flash your way into every combat and have no challenge at all, that's why I inquired under which circumstances and which limits this (rank 1!!) gift works with.

2) If the ability can only be used after the rahu gains the condition, it'll be useless in subsequent scenes after the siskur dah rite wasn't just enacted.

3) Death Grip is OP as fuck if it does all of that scene-wise for 1 essence. I mean, it's better than the best Rage and Strength facets combined whilst in Kuruth.

4) Killing Rampage makes no sense if it doesn't explains how the Uratha may move to their additional targets within an instant action to attack them reflexively.

Nevermind it goes straight against the 2e design of forbidding multiple attacks. I'd just make it so their natural weaponry causes aggravated damage to anything.

The redlining was formatted that way because the gift says "final" as in "final draft" I presume. Nevermind the spelling and grammar.

[nofather]

1) Even Celerity has a maximum number of times such an ability can be used, otherwise the reflexive thing means you'd Flash your way into every combat and have no challenge at all, that's why I inquired under which circumstances and which limits this (rain 1!!) gift works with.

While I agree, I think it's very important not to plan abilities by the limits of other gamelines.

[Story Letter]

1) Even Celerity has a maximum number of times such an ability can be used, otherwise the reflexive thing means you'd Flash your way into every combat and have no challenge at all, that's why I inquired under which circumstances and which limits this (rain 1!!) gift works with.

2) If the ability can only be used after the rahu gains the condition, it'll be useless in subsequent scenes after the siskur dah rite wasn't just enacted.

3) Death Grip is OP as fuck if it does all of that scene-wise for 1 essence. I mean, it's better than the best Rage and Strength facets combined whilst in Kuruth.

4) Killing Rampage makes no sense if it doesn't explains how the Uratha may move to their additional targets within an instant action to attack them reflexively.

Nevermind it goes straight against the 2e design of forbidding multiple attacks. I'd just make it so their natural weaponry causes aggravated damage to anything.

The redlining was formatted that way because the gift says "final" as in "final draft" I presume. Nevermind the spelling and grammar.

1) The answer is simple, essence. Plus you can allready use a similar power in urhan with no limit. This facet allows you to use it in all forms.

2) The siskur dah condition lasts untill the hunt ends which may take an entire story, maybe a small one, but can last for too long.

3) No op at all, you need to be in grapple to benefit from the gift or else it does nothing. Gauru in basu can automatically use without cost great many a gifts and become a real monster. I will reconsider the essence per turn though, it might be more appropriate. Man Butchery is more broken than this gift. I also like the way they combine ...for 3 essence .

4)Well my bad here again since Killing Rampage allows you to move (not run) and make two attacks on a single target or move and make a multiple target attack if you can reach multiple targets, Well normally you don't do two attacks in a round, but there are powers like in Promethean and Demon that allow you to do two different actions like run and attack without losing defense , which is also broken and for less than 2 trait expediture. Well the run and attack while keeping defense posibility might be good but out of mood of this list. There are also gifts that allow you do other reflexive actions like stealth and move or other stuff.

It was more like ''final as ''final decision'' I think
Everything is still under discussion, it's just that these are the best options so far, Killing Rampage does make my mind still spinning though, but I don't think that its too strong on its own. Maybe I will make it to allow you making attacks as ''advanced actions'' with both roll successes added .