[2E] Idigam questions

[wyrdhamster]

I want to dwell more into topic of using Idigams as chronicle antagonists, ‘outside of box’ enemies. As I have at least few questions on this topic, so I started separate thread here. Discussion I will relate to my opening idea of Dragon Idigam I want to use in Viking and Modern game.

Was thinking about Dragon Idigam that starts as 'Sea/Land Serpent' in Norse lands but with Christinization and their myths he becomes more like 'European Dragon' - and after millenia of hibernation - he becomes somehow 'TechnoDragon' in modern times. Something like this. Sounds more or less correct with Idigam rules?

So here are questions I have:

1. What are Idigams, in simple sentence? Here is what I think corebook is pointing as:

For now I just understand that Idigams are spirits that want to be powerful by becoming 'alien' in their concepts. Magaths are just scraps eaters, unfortunate mutations of Shadow Realm. Idigams are those mad spirits that wants to evolve to different concepts than their original purpose was. To shackled off their Shadow Realms limitations.

1. Where are Idigmas when they are Formless? I mean here more of Earh-Bound, as Moon-Banished are obviously on Moon ( dah!).
2. How Idigam choose their new form? Formless just need to see or hear physical representations of new Coalescence? Or they simply need to ‘imagine it’? On our example – I have Norse ‘Wyrm’ Spirit that want to ‘evolve’ by becoming Idigam in Scandinavia. In times of game ‘European Dragons’ are not unheard in the North, but they are fairly set in Europe. Can our ‘Wyrm’ Spirit steal idea for European Dragon from other second part of continent simply that it’s exist on the globe?
3. IS Upside Down from Stranger Thing looking as reaction of Shadow Realm after Idigam long rule? Or more like Wound made by Maeljinn effects? Just see some photos from Season 1…

[Khanwulf]

My understanding has been that Idigam are spirits (or, Pangaeans, if you will), that represent concepts and ideas that do not yet exist. To expand a bit into Mage territory: such concepts may exist in the timeless Supernal, or in various weird realms, but they are not supported by humanity and other essence-producing elements of the material world (Flesh).

Spirits need to be something. To represent something concrete. If they don't, then they are Formless and subject to whim as to what they are, do and the like--whims that include their own thoughts and desires, chiefly, as well as others. To gain real power, however, they need to Coalesce around something that anchors them in their form, abilities and the like--something to which essence can stick, that other spirits can pay homage (chimage?) to, and that they can use to influence Flesh to spread the anchoring principle of what they are.

That's why the example Idigam in the Sundered World DE is attempting to create language and related concepts such as translation--which requires two un-intelligible languages to translate between. It wants to Coalesce around these concepts as its anchor, while what it ends up looking like will become fixed by doing so but may include many other aspects (which is why it looks like a serpent-ish thing). Idigam are capable of spawning servant-spirits to help further its chosen anchor, and the Sundered World example is a problem because for that Idigam to succeed its servants need to confuse communication (and thinking) between individuals/groups to create the concept of language and thus the concept of translation between language.

Idigam are meta.

They are also, as we can see again from the example, extremely disruptive to the status-quo. That makes them fundamentally antagonistic to the werewolves of all stripes, who mostly want the world defined on their terms in easily extrapolated ways (an orderly policed world, a world of co-mingled flesh and spirit, a world of spiritual pain under Maeljin lords of suffering). Idigam want to re-write the world in a fashion that makes it more suited to themselves, based on what they've decided is cool. So if, for random example, you don't want the concept of pain to fundamentally mean certain combinations of colors or the geometric arrangements of lines and curves, you might want to do something about that... thing.

Or, you might have an Idigam that focuses on something potentially beneficial (but probably not totally so). Example: "The Internet" likely started as an Idigam (after 1969), but as we've seen it has pervasively invaded concepts of connectedness and how information (emotion, data and the observation of reality by minds) is transmitted, stored, searched and understood--fundamentally altering the World of Flesh touched by it. Werewolves are now essentially powerless to stop this Idigam, and if they recognize any problems at all might at best channel its influences in useful ways. Elon Musk is an Iron Master who's deeply concerned about this Idigam, by the way, and especially of what will happen when it gains sufficient power to manifest its AI spawn freely....

Where do Idigam come from? From before--before the World of Flesh itself was defined, or before entering reality (as in, outside of the solar system or at least Lunar orbit). They are spirits--or spiritual entities, but spirits are not Idigam and cannot become Idigam. Spirits grow in power by defining themselves to finer and finer slices of the meaning of their original concept; or they suck up so much non-concept essence they end up being weird combinations of identifiable things. Idigam define themselves by determining a target concept that does not exist and forcing it on the World of Spirit AND Flesh.

Does any of this help? I'm no expert, so this is drawn from the readings.

--Khanwulf

[Elfive]

Formless idigam can shapeshift. They can be anywhere.

One thing I've always wondered is how a formless idigam's corpus works. They can change size, logically, so since corpus is resistance + size can they just negate damage by inflating like a balloon? That doesn't seem right to me.

[Satchel]

One thing I've always wondered is how a formless idigam's corpus works. They can change size, logically, so since corpus is resistance + size can they just negate damage by inflating like a balloon? That doesn't seem right to me.

Default mechanics for temporary Health mean damage stays with you; also, weirdly, it's not Size you have to worry about from Shifting so much as shuffling dots into Resistance or turning into swarms and non-solids.

[Elfive]

Yeah, the damage would stay, but there's no rules limiting how big they can get so by RAW they can just generate more and more corpus by getting bigger and bigger and bigger...

[Satchel]

Yeah, the damage would stay, but there's no rules limiting how big they can get so by RAW they can just generate more and more corpus by getting bigger and bigger and bigger...

By RAW they can't increase their Size except through the same channel as "there's no rules limiting them from turning into nothing and becoming immune to damage."

Logically if there's limits to how much Armor they can give themselves or how quickly they can juggle their stats then there's limits to how big they can make themselves. Shifting doesn't generate new "mass" for the idigam.

[Elfive]

One of the things the Shifting dread power allows is "Changing appearance to perfectly copy a person or animal." Considering that some animal are quite large, this necessitates being able to change size.

Maybe the best way to do this is to say they have a fixed "effective" size that determines their corpus and doesn't change no matter how large they get physically. Like, maybe, rank times 2? That'll probably work.

[Satchel]

One of the things the Shifting dread power allows is "Changing appearance to perfectly copy a person or animal." Considering that some animal are quite large, this necessitates being able to change size.

As multiple forum discussions have emphasized, size and Size are not the same thing, to say nothing of how copying the appearance of a blue whale or an elephant as a disguise is different in practice from just growing infinitely definitely larger as a shapeless mass of ephemera as a combat bulwark.

Even with Shifting, adding to the entity's net total Attribute dots uses the normal spirit mechanics and therefore takes time and Essence and has a hard upper limit; there is nothing to suggest adding to an idigam's concrete Size rating should be any less limited with a Dread Power that treats turning into a swarm of animals as a damage divider and turning into water as a means of escaping a grapple.

[wyrdhamster]

Would Ithaeur's Shadow Gaze work on Coalesced Idigam? Shamans just look over Idigam and simply know 'blessed swords kill this thing!', hm? WtF 2E corebook is unclear on that.

[Elfive]

I think it would.

It's probably vital when you're fighting a formless one.

"Ok, what's this thing's bane this time?"

[Malus]

Would Ithaeur's Shadow Gaze work on Coalesced Idigam? Shamans just look over Idigam and simply know 'blessed swords kill this thing!', hm? WtF 2E corebook is unclear on that.

Keep in mind that Coalesced Idigams usually have ungodly high resistances and that example banes include "attacks from someone suffering yellow fever" (nevermind Uratha are immune to that disease, nevermind that dying of yellow fever is an awful way to die).

[wyrdhamster]

I think it would.

It's probably vital when you're fighting a formless one.

"Ok, what's this thing's bane this time?"

But should it work with Coalesced Idigams? Corebook 2E sounds to point other way...

Both Formless and Coalesced are immune to supernatural powers that would command them, master them, or reshape their abilities, whether from Gifts, rites, or the witchcraft of other beings. The idigam can be bound or forced into dormancy, but they can never simply be leashed like a dog and forced into obedience. Their ancient, ever-flowing Essence simply shrugs off any such attempts to chain them to docility.

[Elfive]

"Both Formless and Coalesced are immune to supernatural powers that would command them, master them, or reshape their abilities"

Shadow Gaze does none of these things. It's a passive information-gathering power.

[wyrdhamster]

Oh, I found the quote I was referring to the Itheaur’s not understanding Bans and Banes of Idigam on first look.

Chrysalis Tales

The idigam transform a chronicle into a tale of change and evolution. The Uratha have no context to frame their\ struggle against the Formless. They must adapt and learn or they will die. The Formless themselves are chaos incarnate, travelers on a journey of metamorphosis. The tragedy of the idigam is that most Forsaken who fall victim to the Moon-Banished never really understand what they’re up against. Unlike other prey, no deep well of lore or repeated history of the hunt exists for the Urdaga to draw upon. The idigam are too old and too young. Werewolves who hunt the idigam assuming that they are just spirits soon find themselves caught in a nightmare. The Forsaken don’t yet know the rules of this game, and the nature of the enemy keeps changing.
Formless idigam — those in the natural protean state — are fortunately rare. However, they are also exceedingly hard for Uratha to defeat. Whatever a hunter throws at a Formless, the spirit will just slough off its old vulnerabilities and adapt with new strengths. No plan survives contact with the Formless, because no plan can account for their infinite variation.
The Coalesced are far more powerful but have shed such constant turmoil of form and focus. They display surprising and often catastrophic capabilities on a scale that the Forsaken rarely ever encounter, warping the world around them with ease. These primordial beings may have a retinue of eerie, twisted creatures that they have forged with their corrupted Essence, minions that don’t conform to Uratha hunting lore.
Above all else, Forsaken who would successfully hunt an idigam must exploit its ban and bane. Unfortunately, a werewolf’s usual tricks are of little use against the Moon-Banished. An Ithaeur attempting to use her Shadow Gaze upon an idigam may find that it is too potent for the Facet to pierce. Even getting close enough to the idigam to use the Facet is a risky venture. Seeking wisdom from spirits is equally unlikely to help because the idigam are as alien and monstrous to the other beings of the Shadow as they are to the Uratha.

[Elfive]

Coalesced idigam are rank 4 or 5, minimum. I think "too potent" means just that: Their Resistance is so high that Shadow Gaze's dice roll of Wits + Occult + Wisdom versus Resistance can't beat it.

They have similar problems with regular high-rank spirits, but where those usually have uncoverable lore or enemies willing to clue the uratha in, with idigam everyone's just all "fucked if I know".