[2E] Idigam questions

[Pale_Crusader]

1. What are Idigams, in simple sentence?

[LIST=1]

It is what would happen if a Spirit had only an existing conscious will but had not innate nature, which is abomidable because Spirits are being solely made up of their own innate nature.

If I had a second sentence to clarify it'd be this:

Without an innate nature Idigam break the rules of what Spirits are and become something that must-not-be in a very Lovecraftian sense, obeying metaphysics alien to the Fallen Material and Spirit worlds.

Coalested Idigam have a nature but it is chosen, which is not how spirits work, spirits natures are not a choice for spirits they are merely a result of consequences that accumilated into their Essence. Idigam make Essence bend to their will, shaping it rather than being shaped by it, they have an inverse relationship with Essence compared to spirits.

[wyrdhamster]

Okay, direct mechanical question - How to work with this whole 'Idigam are mysterious threat' angle in game?

Recalling 2E corebook:
Unfortunately, a werewolf’s usual tricks are of little use against the Moon-Banished. An Ithaeur attempting to use her Shadow Gaze upon an idigam may find that it is too potent for the Facet to pierce.

Let's look on the particular exemple then on the whole problem. I will use my fan made Idigam - Fear of Scales - in the Easter Europe Form of it and 'typical' Ithaeur. Our shaman werewolf will have Wits 3, Occult 3 and Wisdom 3 - I think it's fair stats for character like this.

Crescent Moon Gift Shadow Gaze use Dicepool of Wits + Occult + Wisdom versus Resistance of Idigam. So with Easter Europe Dragon Form and it's Resistance of 10, it looks like 9 dices for 'typical Ithaeur' and 10 dices for Idigam. With Ithaeur spending Willpower, we end with 12 dices for PC and 10 for Idigam - do not seems very much for rather powerfull Idigam to win with typical shaman character...

[Elfive]

Spirits can pump their resistance with essence. And also spend willpower.

[wyrdhamster]

Spirits can pump their resistance with essence. And also spend willpower.

So every time Idigam assumes it will confront Uratha, it will pump up his Resistance? Does rising Resistance gives it new Corpus boxes?

[Elfive]

I believe so.

You could simplify things and just give it a dread power that obscures it from stuff like that though.

[wyrdhamster]

You could simplify things and just give it a dread power that obscures it from stuff like that though.

But Dread Powers are not in the Formless form. Also it's not very much 'Idigam are mysterious being we do not understand' when typical Ithaeur can simply look on them and uncover Ban and Bane of middle power one.

[Elfive]

"Ok, I read it's bane again. What the fuck is a plumbus?"

[Malus]

"Ok, I read it's bane again. What the fuck is a plumbus?"

You welcome fam.

[wyrdhamster]

Okay, so just not going with whole 'We use things that are really made up as Bane', does this Dread Power seems okay?

Mysterious
The Idigam is very hard to understand - even more, it's mystically enshrouded in mysteries, obfuscating it's nature. When targeted by powers or actions to uncover it's Bane or Bane, the 'attacker' needs to get next number of success equal to it's Rank or add it's Rank to the contested rolls to oppose those powers or actions to uncover those information.

[S. Brechen]

That bit about Idigam being spirits of concepts that don't yet exists gives me an idea. An idigam that travels back in time at the same speed time little by little. It was born in the future and coalesced around an object or concept that doesn't exist yet, and from that point on, it started influencing the world in its time, then a few years before its time, then before that, etc. The Forsaken are hearing about an idigam that was never heard of before, and nobody can find a ban or any sort of weakness because it's related to something that doesn't exist yet. Now, that would be bad, but a couple of years later, some uratha scholars find a reference about something that could very well be the Idigam relating to an event that happened 10 years ago, except they knew of this event before, and had never made that connection until now, mostly because they had never noticed some key details, that, really, they shouldn't have missed. Then, some other Uratha notice some new idigam related stuff in documents about something that took place 30 years ago, with the same problem that this info feels like it wasn't there before. Now, it's even more serious, because some other things in the world seem to have disappeared, some people even, and some people and uratha seem to notice it, while some other donc, like some weird glitch in the world.

The Idigam, from it's own point of view, is leading a linear, normal existence, except in that existence, people walk backwards and seem to be notice his presence before it's there, and ignore it once it's gone. It doesn't notice these oddities, of course, it's all normal to it. But it's having an effect on the timeline, an effect people from the regular world's future are feeling more and more. So once they understand what the problem is, can the uratha kill the Idigam ? They could wait until the thing the Idigam coalesced around is invented, they could even try to invent it themselves (with all the other issues that would entail) by reverse engineering what they know about it, so they can deduce a weakness. The idigam, after all, is already in their time, even though it seems to already know them, as if they had met before (they have from the Idigam's point of view). The problem is, can they afford to wait very long for whatever they're looking for to be invented ? As they wait, the Idigam is leaving its mark in history deeper and deeper. Can the world even hold until they find a solution ? Is the Idigam looking for something in the past ? What if it travels far enough that it meets with Father Wolf ? And what happens when they do find a ban to exploit ? What happens when they kill the Idigam ? Will that cancel what it did in the past from that point on ? Will that fix the world ? What if it cancelled the very hunt that led to it's destruction ?

Possible solution to make things even worse potentially : Maybe the idigam coalesced around a God-Machine infrastructure that has something to do with time manipulation. What is the God-Machine's stance on that ? Maybe it's curious and wants to see what happens, maybe it'll try to stop the Uratha from killing the idigam.

[nofather]

Fortunately we had time-traveling werewolves who are supposed to deal with that stuff and might throw in to help. Good story for those who play them, too.

The God-Machine doesn't seem incredibly jealous of infrastructure (you might mean occult matrices) once lost, at least not as much as they do with fallen angels. Presumably some would be tasked after it, likely get turned into heralds by the idigam, then be written off as another lost work. Bigger problem might be demons and potentially the Deva corporation, or whatever the name of the group that takes up God-Machine stuff is.

[S. Brechen]

Time traveling werewolves ? What the heck book was that in, I gotta read this.

[Thorbes]

There are a couple of lodges, but only mentioned. One of them is the Tyndaloshi, can't remember the other one. They hate each other and are rivals.

[Satchel]

There are a couple of lodges, but only mentioned. One of them is the Tyndaloshi, can't remember the other one. They hate each other and are rivals.

The Lodge of the Clocktower and the Tindalosi (who hold a special place in my heart) are mentioned as examples of the rare sort of lodges that clash with each other while/due to being essentially variations on the same core concept in a sidebar in The Pack.

The mad Lodge of the Clocktower and the bizarre, twisted Tindalosi fight a relentless cold war of scheming, paranoia and occasional murder even as both sides hunt prey that meddles with the natural order of time itself.

[Khanwulf]

S. Brechen I think that would be a fine concept for a "wtf huh?" Idigam plotline. May I also point you toward the legends around Merlin, who in some places (many?) was accused of "living backwards through time" as a source for his gifts of foresight. The link provided has some interesting speculation that might be useful for your idigam.

In one fashion or another you are essentially developing a plotline of "how do we fight an alien spirit-Merlin?" (GL to the PCs!)

--Khanwulf