Help home-brewing Lodge of Death [2nd]

[LokiRavenSpeak]

The lodge of death is a weird one technically it has 3 write ups in 1st edition. The 1st edition Core which talks about them as uratha who travel to stygian for knowledge or speak to bygone spirits. The Lodge The faithfull writte up in which they get told when they will die and get a nice little voodoo doll. And the Hunting grounds the rockies write up for Obadiah Pickering, which says lodge members learn to bind ghost to fetish. Which apparently does something more? There is an example in the books of a mirror that has the Obadiah first wife ghost bound to it which allows him to see from the eyes of all women that have lost a son in an area.

In my current Denver Game one of my players is gonna make a new PC of the Lodge of Death. That means i have to actually figure out mechanics for them. I know what i dont want the Lodge of Death to be in my games but i am not sure what i want it to be. The PC is not the only one as Denver has Obadiah Pickering.

Of all the write ups of the Loge of Death i dont want the one they go to the underworld (as 2 planes are more than enough to handle) and i dont want the Geist connection because i dont wanna do crossover.

I am gonna take some ideas from

ASH WOLVES, DEATHWALKERS, REAPERS

TOTEM: HITHELAL-US, THE ASHES OF THE DEAD
This being is invisible except when viewed through the smoke of a funeral pyre. The spirit doesn’t speak to Lodge members often, typically only appearing when a member of the Lodge dies and is cremated. At that moment, the spirit appears to remind the surviving werewolves of their mission: understanding the mysteries of death. This death-spirit also mentions its own goal, that of understanding life.

Adherents flock to the Lodge out of sheer morbid curiosity. They want to know death, to better understand their own time among the living and make the most of it, and to know what their own funerals might look like. Others have lost relatives and wish to know that they have passed safely on, or wish to pick their brains for knowledge thought gone forever. Some join with benign goals, however. They might have lost family, lovers or friends and wish to find them and ensure that they are safe, or are otherwise put to rest. Still, others regard death as the ultimate test of mettle and courage a werewolf who does not fear her own death is a truly dangerous foe.

I am toying with the idea of Ghost Fetish but Rage book just gives you some fluffy details but no clear advantage to them over normal fetish or even how they function.



So my focus of this lodge is on ghost mostly and so far i got this.

Sacred Hunt: The Hunter can tocuh Ghost but can only see them as long as he maintain contact. This is unmovable as i introduce this ability on the game before when the PC came to Obadiah for help with a ghost.

Aspiration: Not needed, i dont use the Aspiration system in my games.

Blessing: I am torn on this one, at first i though spend 1 WP to see twilight for a scene. Or WP expenditures gives +5 but any failure is Dramatic one to go with the whole "they dont fear death" thing of Lodge of the Faithful. Or maybe something related to ghost fetish.

Ban: I dont have any idea.

Tools: Lodge armory and get all the ghost fetish in the books and Lodge sorcery Influences from Death, Smoke, and Ashes. Another page taken from @Deionscribe


So any help with Ghost Fetish or a ban would be appreciated. Thanks

[Malus]

Something you have to understand about the Lodge of Death is that their different write-ups aren't mutually exclusive in the previous edition. The Lodge is a massively ancient multicultural affair, with different methods to explore their mysteries. The ones described as having knowledge of their own demise are clearly the militant branch of it; the ones who comb the depths of the underworld are the most mystic oriented, and then you have werewolves such as Obadiah who treat the lodge as the means to an end, not their ultimate pursuit.

Another of your issues is that, without being willing to give a motivation to the group (in the form of an aspiration) then you won't ever be able to give them a direction.

Finally, mechanically speaking, the bonafide Sacred Hunt of the Boneshadows allows them to touch ghosts; if they get Influences in Death they ought to gain spirit senses in order to perceive them, nevermind other specific rites or fetishes used to that purpose.

Regarding Ghost Fetishes, look at Sin Eaters objects of power (I believe they're called Mementos).

[LokiRavenSpeak]

Something you have to understand about the Lodge of Death is that their different write-ups aren't mutually exclusive in the previous edition. The Lodge is a massively ancient multicultural affair, with different methods to explore their mysteries. The ones described as having knowledge of their own demise are clearly the militant branch of it; the ones who comb the depths of the underworld are the most mystic oriented, and then you have werewolves such as Obadiah who treat the lodge as the means to an end, not their ultimate pursuit.

What i mean by the different write up was that i am focusing on a non-crossover view of them. Simply put i dont own Geist, nor do i want to introduce them in my current campaign. And putting the underworld up for travel means reading on it just so 1 character can, maybe, travel there. Not what i am looking for this particular homebrew.

Another of your issues is that, without being willing to give a motivation to the group (in the form of an aspiration) then you won't ever be able to give them a direction.

We tried it and while i enjoy the Aspiration mechanic. My group didnt, they range from a pure "i dislike the meta-nature of it" to passive players that dont know what goals to pick. I could just put a list of "available goals" but them that just defeats the purpose of the mechanic itself. The purpose is to give the players narrative control of the Story beyond what their character can do. My Forsaken group dont wanna have that kind of control and prefer only affecting the story by the choices of their character.

I mean i have a motivation of the Lodge: The studying of Ghost/Mysteries of death. But that irrelevant (for my game) of the aspiration mechanics.

Finally, mechanically speaking, the bonafide Sacred Hunt of the Boneshadows allows them to touch ghosts; if they get Influences in Death they ought to gain spirit senses in order to perceive them, nevermind other specific rites or fetishes used to that purpose.

Yeah that one is on me, using the special hunt thinking at the time nobody was gonna play a Lodge of Death PC at the time. The way i handle it was that while touching the ghost they could see Twilight. Kinda like phasing into Twilight as long as they were touching the ghost. I am stuck on that one as i introduce it into the continuity and i know players remember that because it was very important scene for one of the PCs.

As for influences, they dont really need spirit senses (which dont all Uratha have? The ability of sending their senses across the Shadow). They could Strengthen death, manipulate it or even control it. I dont think i would allow them to buy Create and Mass Create. Meaning they could make a person weaker, or even if someone (Human) is pass their lethal treshold to outright kill them. They could do that the same way a control sickness works.

[Malus]

Alright, first: have you discussed with the player what sort of Lodge of Death they're into? What if they are into the whole going down to river Styx aspect of it?

Second: The Lodge aspiration is static, like the pack totem one, that shouldn't run on any of the issues individual aspirations run, they also aren't meta (and no aspiration needs to be meta, just like they all could be for a PC in question). You need to narrow it down. Clearly Obadiah's Aspiration was "Remember the dead" (which is how he learned from them, and also conducted him to binding his first wife into the mirror). The one in Faithful could be something like "Display no fear in the face of death" and/or "Live like it's your last day on earth".

Third: Not all spirit senses, ie, individual spirits senses are the same. Like a spirit of secrets can literally smell the secrets you hold in your breast, a spirit of death can naturally perceive and sometimes eat ghosts. Like a spirit of information may address you not by name, but by social security number. Gaining access to such influences allows you access to such perceptions. A spirit of vengeance wouldn't be able to manipulate it (vengeance) if it couldn't personally perceive it. Just like a spirit of stealth can notice you when you try to be inconspicuous deliberately.

What is your take of Ghost Touched objects in the Rage? Bear in mind: they carry curses because they have unwilling ghosts bound within them - with no easy way to separate them (like a normal fetish could). A ghost that was properly persuaded into an object may not curse the object - but that's easier said than done. A fetish rite that works on ghosts may only apply to the ghost anchors, or receive a bonus for their use as the object and it makes negotiating with the entity dealing with what was ultimately a person, usually far less alien than what a spirit may be.

[LokiRavenSpeak]

Alright, first: have you discussed with the player what sort of Lodge of Death they're into? What if they are into the whole going down to river Styx aspect of it?

Yes, He doesnt have and interest in the underworld. His approach was that he is playing an Cahalith with both lunar list at 5. So he has a collection of souls following around, he just wants a lodge related to death to do something with his souls.

Second: The Lodge aspiration is static, like the pack totem one, that shouldn't run on any of the issues individual aspirations run, they also aren't meta (and no aspiration needs to be meta, just like they all could be for a PC in question). You need to narrow it down. Clearly Obadiah's Aspiration was "Remember the dead" (which is how he learned from them, and also conducted him to binding his first wife into the mirror). The one in Faithful could be something like "Display no fear in the face of death" and/or "Live like it's your last day on earth".

"Rip secrets from the dead" Would be for what the player in question wants of the lodge.

Third: Not all spirit senses, ie, individual spirits senses are the same. Like a spirit of secrets can literally smell the secrets you hold in your breast, a spirit of death can naturally perceive and sometimes eat ghosts. Like a spirit of information may address you not by name, but by social security number. Gaining access to such influences allows you access to such perceptions. A spirit of vengeance wouldn't be able to manipulate it (vengeance) if it couldn't personally perceive it. Just like a spirit of stealth can notice you when you try to be inconspicuous deliberately.

Oh, okay i see what you mean.

What is your take of Ghost Touched objects in the Rage? Bear in mind: they carry curses because they have unwilling ghosts bound within them - with no easy way to separate them (like a normal fetish could). A ghost that was properly persuaded into an object may not curse the object - but that's easier said than done. A fetish rite that works on ghosts may only apply to the ghost anchors, or receive a bonus for their use as the object and it makes negotiating with the entity dealing with what was ultimately a person, usually far less alien than what a spirit may be.

I think you are confusing the Gazhdum (Ghost-touched objects) with the Arrathudum (Curse items). The former dont have a drawback to them. The way i read it is that they are like a normal fetish but their purview is more broads as long as it relates to death.

An simple example would be a: "flamethrower-fetish that only applies to the death" instead of getting a fire spirit into it, you could get a ghost who died in a fire of lower rank but only applicable to a theme of death. However thats my take on reading the Ghost Touched objects.


As for Blessing: I am looking at the Lodge of 1k teeth and i am thinking of not straying too much from the mechanics already established. So a "All interactions with ghost gain the rote-quality" is the option i am more leaning for.

As for ban. I am toying with what you said of Obadiah remembering the death. "Must spend 1 hour per day remembering the dead in a place of mourning" as a ban.

[Acrozatarim]

The Lodge of Death was actually the first Lodge I wrote up when creating the new rules for Lodges in The Pack; I ended up going for the Garmir rather than the Lodge of Death as I also wanted the Eaters in there, and that'd be too much overlap between two Lodges when I only had five to play with.

Presumably I still have the original crude draft for the Lodge of Death somewhere amongst my files.

[LokiRavenSpeak]

The Lodge of Death was actually the first Lodge I wrote up when creating the new rules for Lodges in The Pack; I ended up going for the Garmir rather than the Lodge of Death as I also wanted the Eaters in there, and that'd be too much overlap between two Lodges when I only had five to play with.

Presumably I still have the original crude draft for the Lodge of Death somewhere amongst my files.

Nice, i would be thankful if you could share it

[Acrozatarim]

Right, so, I'm not going to share the full write-up for a couple of reasons - in particular, it was a first draft to show Stew and the rest of the team how the new ideas I was envisaging for Lodge rules would actually *work*. It's a bit at variance with the final form of said rules, *and* it's very much a rough first that I would write differently were I doing it again - but it got the core concepts I wanted to show, and I wouldn't change the heart of how I'd approach the Lodge of Death with it. You can see bits and pieces of it bleeding into The Pack's Lodge section anyway, in the various mentions that the Lodge of Death and their practices get given.

Rough gist:
- Lodge of Death are focused on understanding the secrets of the moment of death - the passing from one side of the final threshold to the other, a boundary that some prey do not obey as they should. They take as their sacred prey those who challenge the sanctity of death.
- Moderate changes to the totem - now Thihissu - the totem has a background that ties into the idea that Death Wolf has an actual ghost version of her running around from that time she died and got better. (I also bolted on some general rules for 'powerful spirits that survived the ghost's passing-by and ended up lodged part-way between the Shadow and the Underworld, becoming ghost-like and weird')
- Very ritualistic, would be seen as very weird and transgressive by the standards of other Uratha, so try to hide much of that behind a veneer of serving Uratha society in the role of respectable death-priests, which is a great excuse for them to get close to dying Uratha and creepily stare at them via the ihimma zith rite.
- Blessing: Get a point of WP back at the end of any scene they witness the death of a human or werewolf, or the destruction of an undead creature.
- Aspiration: Experience and understand the fear of death - and conquer it.
- Ban: Struggled a bit with this, need to tweak what I had in the original, but generally the idea is that those who deliver death are sacrosanct - so the Pale Hounds ironically are hamstrung when trying to kill mortals or werewolves who have recently taken a human life.
- Sacred Hunt: Lets the Pale Hound's physical attacks either temporarily reduce target's Influence (Death) or (Anchor), sever Touchstones from those Undead who have them; and Wisdom Clash of Wills against targets whose lifespan is supernaturally extended by magic or powers, with victory in the roll cutting off one such source of extended life (which is likely to be immediately terminal for, for example, a sorcerer who has used spells to live to 200 years old or whatnot).
- As this was an early draft, whereas the final format had far fewer words available, the Lodge had a slew of fetishes, rites, etc attached to it. One of the ones central to the Lodge's actual behaviour was the ihimma zith, the Death Witness rite, which involved holding vigil over a dying being to get a beat, restore WP and learn various things about the character as they die.

[nofather]

Aw man that's so wicked.

[Seidmadr]

I've said it before, and I'll say out again; I'd be happy to buy pdfs with individual lodges/bloodlines/legacies/whatever. Kind of like how individual fall eras are sold.
Hopefully, if I say it often enough, someone might notice.

Chris, your lodge is awesome, I'd buy a full version of that writeup in a heartbeat.

[LokiRavenSpeak]

Acrozatarim thanks for sharing!

[Pale_Crusader]

I like the immortal/undead hunting of the version posted by Acrozatarim. I"d note for LokiRavenSpeak that possibly extending the tooth and fang bane Uratha have over spirits with two less rank than their honorary as well as touch against Ghosts is good and could be revealed as the Lodge member gains Honorary rank to make it applicable. This turns an underpower ability into something neat and distinctive to the Lodge (because then it'd be more specialized than Bone Shadow sacred hunt, access to banes without tedious research for each specific ghost to clear minor most ghosts by Honorary rank 4 is great)

EDIT: Actually thinking about the Lodge's Sacred Hunt it may be better to keep it simple, and say when the rite of the Sacred Hunt is performed by a member of this Lodge against a Ghost the Pack treats the Ghost as if it were a Spirit for fang and talon bane due to honorary rank being two higher than the Ghost's Rank, be able to Perceive it as if it were a Spirit, AND what benefits the Pack can claim from the Ghost upon a Successful hunt as if it were a Spirit.

Gaining gifts appropriate for the ghost's nature or dividing up its Essence so it won't reform is some other Uratha wouldn't have.