The Uratha Shall Cleave to the Human - Uratha Safal Thil Lu’u

[Terrorforge]

It is important to understand that not every action that causes a Breaking Point is necessarily "wrong" by either human or werewolf standards. There's nothing inherently immoral about staying out of the Hisil for a week, for example.

It's also important to understand that werewolf, like most WoD games, deliberately makes you choose between your sense of self and what's socially acceptable. Just as a vampire has to face situations where she must either uphold her Humanity but appears weak and unreliable to her fellows or reap social credit and other temporal rewards but fall deeper into monstrosity, a werewolf has to face situations where she must either violate the Oath to uphold human ideals but earn the ire of others or uphold the ideals of her tribe but risk slipping ever further into the Spirit.

e: it's not a coincidence that breaking towards Flesh requires you to at least remove yourself from werewolf culture for a while

[Seidmadr]

Another in-setting reason might be that the human souls are needed to fuel the change.
And to make sure werewolves don't waste their time (so to speak), some precautions were implanted to make sure they stayed re-productive.

[Story Letter]

Is that your personal interpretation on "if using a hard leverage against spirits, that is a breaking point toward spirit" or i miss a rule?

Well the same principal works in the social system with spirits, first impression, doors etc etc

[LokiRavenSpeak]

Mainly because you're trying to disregard the spiritual quid pro quo.

I mean i could see it because on one hand number of doors are very high for spirits and it would make sense for the breaking point to happen when forcing doors against spirits. But against humans it seems odd. Considering that a lot of things that you can do to humans wouldnt fly (harmony wise) against spirits and vice versa, its odd the fact of forcing a door would universally applicable to both.

Well because of using primal violence, tapping at your inermost violent beast nature to harm a being of flesh, it would have been a breaking point towards spirit if you used hard leverage on a spirit social roll.

IMHO this breaking point should have been used only in case of torturing.

Is that your personal interpretation on "if using a hard leverage against spirits, that is a breaking point toward spirit" or i miss a rule?

As for the primal violence, it really depends. Forcing door covers a lot of other social situations beyond violence. From ultimatums to social threats.

[nofather]

I've had players roll more successes than their dicepool and I've had players fail on double-digit pools.

That is always so embarrassing.

Story Letter

Basically the game presumes you'll be hitting these Breaking Points a lot, so you will be rolling a lot. This means that someone with a small dicepool is going to be flipping all over the place. While someone with a high one might be stuck in a Harmony they don't want to be in for longer periods of time. The cure for both of them (providing their goal is 5 Harmony) is more action which, in turn, means more Breaking Points. These are going to be split between things you have to do, for the story, pack, to repay debts with spirit gods and so forth, and things you want to do, to achieve a balance or enjoy some 'normalcy.'

Throw these characters into a larger story and add the other dynamics of storytelling and you have more of a tense and unstable situation

[Satchel]

dood actually the higher your Resolve + Composure is, the easier is to succeed on breaking point rolls.

Yes. Your Harmony doesn't change on a successful roll.

only that it poses no penalty on the Resolve + Composure roll in order to have good fail chance.

Again: Frequency of rolls does more for you than dice penalties will.

dood you need to do bad things because only then you gain penalties in order to raise harmony closer to 5,

I've had players roll more successes than their dicepool and I've had players fail on double-digit pools.

and that sounds kind off, you know to kill werewolves and destroy loci in order to come .... closer to balance come oooonnn can't you see the obvious ?

"The obvious" here being that a Dog is a different sort of werewolf than a Fade and werewolves who aren't in a time crunch will generally manage to rebalance by avoiding breaking points toward the nearer end of their scale and load up on breaking points toward the middle regardless of the penalties involved.

"Defiling a locus" isn't "destroying a locus" — it doesn't go into greater detail, but considering it's an unpenalized breaking point relating to a class of sacred space it's probably a fair bet that bringing competing Resonance into a locus in plain disregard for the Shadow is how that dip towards the Flesh is intended.

You are completely mistaken on this.

It is my sincere hope that I do not have to explain why "a Trait that changes by failing rolls is the most mobile when the dicepool to check whether or not it changes is very small and the mitigating bonuses are not present" is the furthest thing from mistaken.

[Story Letter]

Using hard leverage in a social situation is a breaking point towards flesh.....for some reason.

Well because of using primal violence, tapping at your inermost violent beast nature to harm a being of flesh, it would have been a breaking point towards spirit if you used hard leverage on a spirit social roll.

IMHO this breaking point should have been used only in case of torturing.

[Malus]

Using hard leverage in a social situation is a breaking point towards flesh.....for some reason.

Mainly because you're trying to disregard the spiritual quid pro quo.

[LokiRavenSpeak]

While not listed in the Harmony section there are gifts and rituals that are breaking points towards spirit or flesh. I got a character that use plenty of those to force the change in harmony.

Gifts

• Full Moon 5 "Crimson Spams": Dramatic failing it, breaking toward spirit.
• Nature´s Wisdom "Beat Ride": Killing the animal you are riding cause the user to do breaking toward spirit.
• Technology´s Wisdom "Iron Slave": Destroying the machine you are riding cause the user to do breaking toward spirit.
• Change´s Purity "Father Form": Using it and not engaging in combat is a breaking toward flesh.

Rites:

• Sacred hunt: Destroying and spirit or getting a gift by using it is a breaking point towards spirit.
• Totemic empowerment: Using it is a breaking point towards Spirit.

Using hard leverage in a social situation is a breaking point towards flesh.....for some reason.

[Malus]

dood actually the higher your Resolve + Composure is, the easier is to succeed on breaking point rolls.

Therefore it is less likely to change.

only that it poses no penalty on the Resolve + Composure roll in order to have good fail chance. dood you need to do bad things because only then you gain penalties in order to raise harmony closer to 5, and that sounds kind off, you know to kill werewolves and destroy loci in order to come .... closer to balance come oooonnn can't you see the obvious ?

But I'll still be rolling it over 30 times in a month if I hit Harmony 3, stick to the Gurihal and have a sexually active relationship. Penalties or not, my Harmony is bound to change. Once more, for the Nth time, these aren't sins. These are breaking points.

[Story Letter]

getting shorter as your potential Resolve + Composure pool gets bigger. That's not a flawed writing of the rule.

dood actually the higher your Resolve + Composure is, the easier is to succeed on breaking point rolls.

"Nasty things" include "spending time in or out of the Shadow.

only that it poses no penalty on the Resolve + Composure roll in order to have good fail chance. dood you need to do bad things because only then you gain penalties in order to raise harmony closer to 5, and that sounds kind off, you know to kill werewolves and destroy loci in order to come .... closer to balance come oooonnn can't you see the obvious ?

Of course it sounds off — you're looking at the system as though an uphill climb ought to be managed in a handful of jumps without resembling extreme circumstances. A werewolf with the easiest time getting to Harmony 5 also has the easiest time falling out of it, so maintaining that balance for most characters is a thing they work on regularly.[/FONT]

You are completely mistaken on this.

[Malus]

Actually they are both, and now you mentioned it what happens in that case ? you roll for both with their respective penalties?

Yes, I begin with the one I'm least skewed to.

Re Oath of Urfarah: The corebook doesn't concerns itself with mechanics for Pure characters (not even their sacred hunt are described mechanically). There's still precedent for violating such a thing to carry spiritual ramifications.

[Story Letter]

These aren't "sins." They're breaking points. Eating people is both eating people and a violation of the Oath. That's two rolls in opposite directions, each with a separate chance to fail.

Actually they are both, and now you mentioned it what happens in that case ? you roll for both with their respective penalties?
I mean that werewolf is the only game that yo make two rolls at the same time.

[Satchel]

No, eating people is only towards spirit, there are no sins that are for both, it is illogical and serves no purpose.

These aren't "sins." They're breaking points. Eating people is both eating people and a violation of the Oath. That's two rolls in opposite directions, each with a separate chance to fail.

[Story Letter]

"Violating spiritual stuff" at Harmony 3 is as easy as: having intercourse with a human; Staying a whole day out of the Shadow, or eating a hamburger. Not necessarily moral questionable things (to humans; to a venerable scion of the Hunt, is another matter altogether). Killing humans is also not morally questionable to werewolves, and "eating people" is both a spiritual and physical breaking point (so it'll skew you towards where you're most unbalanced), assuming you swore you wouldn't.

No, eating people is only towards spirit, there are no sins that are for both, it is illogical and serves no purpose.

What troubles me though is if the sins above 8 for flesh and below 3 for spirit are added to the already normal list or thet are just them and you ignore the orhers because you are already too degenerate and monstrous to care. I think they should add to the total rather than taking only them in consideration, so aharmony 3 dood should roll for both, mating with human and defiling a locus which makes sense.