Skinthieves

[Primordial newcomer]

Are they a sub type of werewolves? What do they bring to the table mechanically and lore wise? Finally, do they fit the themes of the game or do they add more to it

[Omegaphallic]

You can find them in Dark Eras or that independant chapter.

[Primordial newcomer]

Well yeah, the Aztec dark era and such, but I just want to know what the add to the game. Also, I just want to see if I'm interested enough to buy the skinthieves book

[nofather]

Are they a sub type of werewolves?

Not really. The power involved tends to be linked to the spirit, though.

What do they bring to the table mechanically and lore wise?

Mortals with powers, usually. In some cases it's spirits with the power to masquerade as mortals, or 'uplifted' animals. Lore wise for the most part it just shows you what happens when desperate humans get touched by the spirit. There's some linking to other aspects of Uratha history, like the Balam, and more strongly spirit things.

Finally, do they fit the themes of the game or do they add more to it

It's a good reason for why you don't want the spirit and mortal worlds mixing, the issues that can be raised with humans dabbling in the occult or spirits with too much interest in humans. They're certainly curveballs to throw at werewolves.

It's not a werewolf book, it's a 'blue book' which means its for mortals or everyone. But I find the ideas presented within work best for mortal or werewolf games. In all of them, they can be nasty surprises and antagonists. Skinchangers is a pretty solid book.

[Vent0]

Skinchangers the book is 1E, and the Dark Era (Beneath the Skin) updates the mortal-wearing-an-animal/spirit-skin ones to 2E.

[Primordial newcomer]

Ok, can't you actually play as skinthieves, I may he wrong but what what advantages and disadvantages do they have to werewolves

[nofather]

Ok, can't you actually play as skinthieves

Yes, you can. Skinchangers is not a gameline of its own, but there's enough systems for a PC or PC group to be built using them.

what what advantages and disadvantages do they have to werewolves

They're not as powerful or as varied in ability as werewolves.

Usually Skinthieves can change into one kind of thing with some limitations, there's some potential added benefits too. Werewolves can change into five different forms and have their own Skin Thief gift that lets them change into a lot more, with potentially infinite options once fetishes are factored in. Then werewolves have other things on top of shapeshifting, such as healing, enhanced senses, blood tracking, spirit sorceries, gifts, and so much more. You should probably read the books or do some research if you want to know more of what werewolves are capable of.

[Vent0]

So, since it has been awhile, I am just going to comment on 2E Skinthieves.

Advantages: more animal types? Easier access to Numina and Influences? Still being mortal? Can access Animal, Spirit, and Ghost (possibly others) forms (given the right Skins). Can eat food other than meat?

Disadvantages: no inherent regeneration. Not a natural killing machine. No inherent facility with Spirits. Needs a talisman for transformation. Lower Essence stores. Still subject to Breaking Points.

Skinthieves are really for a mortal take on shapechanging. If you combine it with one of those Tells that transforms you into a wolf (or other Uratha forms), you can tell similar stories without the full Forsaken baggage.

[Reighnhell]

RE: Skinthieves

Lets see if I can sum this up. Skinchangers(and Skinthieves in particular) do not have much to do with the Uratha by default. They are largely presented as mortal occultists who through ritual or circumstance gain powers that reflect a totemic representation of an animal. Any connection to the lore of the Forsaken/Pure or any connection to Luna or Father Wolf is purely incidental.

In the terms of game mechanics, 1st edition Skinthieves were a Minor Template - somewhere between a mortal with a few supernatural merits, and full template such a Werewolf or a Vampire. As such, they are not as powerful a full template (few if any inherent powers). However, they also aren't deeply tied to their own mythology or cosmology. A player and Storyteller can come up with the circumstances behind the Skinthieves powers. Their abilities were a merit style toolkit - you select the abilities you want the character to have, giving a pretty high degree of customization.

I will point out that Skinchangers was an early 1st edition book - many of the mechanics and general gameline assumptions have shifted somewhat since that time. As noted earlier, if you do decide to make a Skinchanger character, I would suggest using the updated mechanics from Dark Eras (pg. 248-249). This update condenses the Template into a Supernatural Merit, which you select the same way you would select any other Supernatural template for a mortal character.

[Primordial newcomer]

Thanks guys, this clears things up for me. I will be getting the book soon now. Once again thanks, this was really helpful

[Seidmadr]

It's completely viable to play one. In a Mortal+ campaign the group has going on, I'm playing a Wolfblood who used his natural spirit-connections to become a Skin Thief. It's rather satisfying for a mid-power chronicle.

[Khanwulf]

It's completely viable to play one. In a Mortal+ campaign the group has going on, I'm playing a Wolfblood who used his natural spirit-connections to become a Skin Thief. It's rather satisfying for a mid-power chronicle.

Thanks Primordial newcomer for the thread. This raises some interesting possibilities that might be handy for a PC in my story, also going through a slow burn along the mortal+ track.

As a few quick observations:

1. The Merit is 3+ dots, with extra dots above the 3 serving to purchase sub-Merits that tune the power and expand it in various ways. Normally Merits cap at 5 dots, however, which would make roughly half of the sub-Merits impossible to purchase. Logically the best way to handle this is just say "sub-Merits require the Skinthief Merit and are linked to a given instance of that Merit."

2. You could easily approximate "lesser shapeshifters" who do not need skins to change by tacking on a sub-Merit that removes the need for such:

One Spirit, One Flesh (*****)
Your animal or spirit skin has merged with your mortal frame; it can no longer be lost or separated from you without application of potent magic, however you naturally and unconsciously take on physical appearance affectations and habits that remind others of the creature you are bonded to.

Then take the wolf-blooded Tell for regeneration.

What would a proper Skinthief sub-Merit look like that melds two forms--one animal and one spirit, into a single, blended entity for transformation? That's essentially what werewolves are, if you shed their backstory.

Ideas?

--Khanwulf

[Primordial newcomer]

No problem Khanwulf. Unless hunter counts as a mortal playthrough, I may play as a skin thief trying to become part of the vigil

[Khanwulf]

Further reading question for anyone: "Changing form using a stolen spirit’s skin grants the skinchanger a Twilight form and vulnerability to the spirit’s ban and bane."

Does thieving a spirit's skin mean that changing into it places the thief first into Twilight? That would enable them to interact normally with other [ghosts? prolly not] and spirits, there, but without additional powers they would not be able to cross the Gauntlet into Shadow (or, affect the Material for that matter).

If this is correct, then I assume on shifting to Twilight the thief vanishes from the Material until they shift back (basically placing themselves back into phase with the material world).

So. If a Skin Thief has a spirit skin, how might they learn Numina in order to affect the Material, or find a way to cross to Shadow? (Such as a Shoal I assume--but other means? Merits?)
[Edit: duh. Spirit Powers sub-Merit addresses this directly, by both providing dots of Influence and Numina/Manifestations! Very efficient and potent, btw.]

Obviously one of the disadvantages of the Skin Thief is that they do not cause Lunacy, and thus you have to be very careful around whom you use your supernatural powers!

Other note: (WtF p.184?), 'Spirits in the material world but outside of a suitable Condition bleed one point of Essence per hour.' A Skin Thief hanging around as a spirit in Twilight would be draining unless they had a corresponding Condition or an active Fetter--neither of which immediately spring from the DE text. All this reinforces the points in the text about Essence and its replenishment, so I think I'm on-track.


--Khanwulf

PS: Because I cannot leave it alone today...

Chimeric Form (*** or ****)
Your stolen form is an amalgamation of your two or more Skin Thief forms. You assume your animal form by applying more than one skin, and take the better attributes of both your forms, including size, strength and movement types. At three dots your Chimeric Form is the only form you may assume, requiring each skin to change, at four dots you may choose to use any form or Chimeric Form independently.

If one of your forms is a spirit or ghost, you may enter and exit Twilight as an instant action throughout your transformation, and may use spirit influences and numina as if materialized, and do not suffer essence bleed in the Material. [Functionally equivalent to Spirit Powers at 1 dot, with Materialize manifestation selected.]

Drawback: nothing about your supernatural transformation looks or functions right, and while observing your power in action might have provoked breaking points in others before, your Chimeric Form is downright terrifying--even if it is a mix of animal and spirit that combines well conceptually. You inflict Lunacy as if you were in Urshul form. Further, if one of your forms is a spirit your attempts to explain it all to the Uratha will be at least entertaining....

[Tessie]

Further reading question for anyone: "Changing form using a stolen spirit’s skin grants the skinchanger a Twilight form and vulnerability to the spirit’s ban and bane."

Does thieving a spirit's skin mean that changing into it places the thief first into Twilight? That would enable them to interact normally with other [ghosts? prolly not] and spirits, there, but without additional powers they would not be able to cross the Gauntlet into Shadow (or, affect the Material for that matter).

If this is correct, then I assume on shifting to Twilight the thief vanishes from the Material until they shift back (basically placing themselves back into phase with the material world).

Twilight Form applies if no other Manifestation effect is in place, so whenever they drape themselves with a spirit's skin they'd enter Twilight, where they would only be able to interact with spirits and other things that consist of the same type of ephemera. Ghosts would continue to be just as invisible and intangible as when the skin thief is in their usual form.

So. If a Skin Thief has a spirit skin, how might they learn Numina in order to affect the Material, or find a way to cross to Shadow? (Such as a Shoal I assume--but other means? Merits?)

Spirit Powers (•+) (first Merit on page 249) grants access to one of the skinned spirit's Numina or Manifestations per dot, as well as access to the spirit's Influences capped by the dot rating of Spirit Powers.
I think you mixed up Shoal and Verge. Verges are mentioned but never actually described in second edition, but I imagine they work like in first edition where anyone can walk straight through them to the other side of the Gauntlet as long as they're open.

Other note: (WtF p.184?), 'Spirits in the material world but outside of a suitable Condition bleed one point of Essence per hour.' A Skin Thief hanging around as a spirit in Twilight would be draining unless they had a corresponding Condition or an active Fetter--neither of which immediately spring from the DE text. All this reinforces the points in the text about Essence and its replenishment, so I think I'm on-track.

The Essence Pool Merit describes the process of gaining Essence for skin thieves. It's not 100% clear, but I would assume that the Resonant Condition for the spirit whose skin you've stolen will protect you from Essence bleed as long as you're wearing the skin.
I would very much recommend getting both Essence Pool and Spirit Powers to anyone who wishes to steal spirit skins. Not having to pay Willpower instead of Essence, and being able to use Influences/Manifestations to stave off Essence bleed are both extremely useful for anyone who likes to pretend to be a spirit.