A Question Concerning Firstborn And Places-That-Aren't

[Demigod Beast]

So, is it basically safe to assume the Firstborn are laired in Places-That-Aren't, in the Shadow Realm?

If so, what would these strange pocket-realities look like?

I can imagine Death Wolf's Place-That-Isn't is a cavern of epic proportions, the bones of the dead lying everywhere, Salt-encrusted corpses are half-fused into the walls, and tunnels that lead below will eventually take you am Avernian Gate to the Underworld. Here, Death Wolf sleeps, her body perfectly mimicking the dead as she dreams of impossible things and incomprehensible mysteries!

[Demigod Beast]

I imagine Rabid Wolf's Place-That-Isn't is a vast forest caught alight in a humongous conflagration, the trees screaming while disease-carrying animals flee mindlessly, eternally, from s blaze they are doomed to never truly distance themselves from.

Rabid Wolf, a festering, twisting mass of cooked wolf-corpse, covered in a carpet of parasite-spirits and attended by an insane court of gibberiing monstrosities, holds endless discourse on nonsensical doctrine...that is, when he doesn't agonizingly lurch to his feet and bolt off into the darkness on strange self-imposed errands no one has the courage to question him over!

[Krat05]

Destroyer Wolf feels like he belongs on a battlefield, possibly after the battle itself has happened, but he should also be there in the middle of the slaughter. The battlefield should probably have a Nordic feel to it for obvious reasons (Fenris-Ur).

Red Wolf's Place-That-Isn't should definitely be some kind of urban area, very technological.

[wyrdhamster]

Red Wolf's Place-That-Isn't should definitely be some kind of urban area, very technological.

In contrast, I imagine Red Wolf's lair - as totem of Iron Masters - to be endless 'scrap-heap', with all items, devises and inventions humanity anytime invented or created, even in future. Red Wolf is most curious and driven to inventions of all of Firstborns. She would wanted to have any tool she can use by herself.

[Krat05]

In contrast, I imagine Red Wolf's lair - as totem of Iron Masters - to be endless 'scrap-heap', with all items, devises and inventions humanity anytime invented or created, even in future. Red Wolf is most curious and driven to inventions of all of Firstborns. She would wanted to have any tool she can use by herself.

One, I noticed you've used female pronouns for Red Wolf, who is canonically male.
Two, I remembered something from Lore of the Forsaken which I read fairly recently. The book has descriptions of each of the Firstborns Places-That-Aren't.

[Tessie]

One, I noticed you've used female pronouns for Red Wolf, who is canonically male.

Spirits have no gender, and Red Wolf is referred to with mixed pronouns. Even "Father" Wolf and "Mother" Luna are mere conventional terminology rather than indications of their genders.

[wyrdhamster]

Spirits have no gender, and Red Wolf is referred to with mixed pronouns. Even "Father" Wolf and "Mother" Luna are mere conventional terminology rather than indications of their genders.

It's why in my fanom is that in Scandiavia Uratha revere Father Moon ( from Mani) and Mother of Wolves ( from Angerboda). And in Rome werewolves worship 'Creators Lesbian Couple' with female Capitole Wolf Mother and Mother Luna.

[Korogra]

While a technological bent isn’t a bad way to go, change doesn’t have to be limited to a God-Machine like focus on mankind’s technology. You could have Red Wolf’s Place-That-Isn’t resemble a vast, ever growing-and-withering forest, the creatures within rapidly moving through their life cycles in a matter or days or hours, life forms evolving over the course of moments rather than eons. Or it can be a massive primeval gladiatorial arena where thoughts, concepts, and monstrous spirits battle for supremacy to determine Survival Of The Fittest. And all throughout there could be subtle cogs and gears ever grinding onward, ticking away as the universe reaches some sort of coalescence- an eventuality that Red Wolf is eternally waiting to witness...

[Demigod Beast]

EDIT: Sigh. I'm a dumbass.

[Guest]

Demigod Beast totally agree.

Also, I always thought of Red Wolf as she.

[nofather]

The gender of spirits being more free was something people were made aware of further in second edition.

But Red Wolf has always been ahead of the curve.

In Tribes of the Moon the section on the Iron Masters gets into it, around p127.

'Iron Master stories never agree on Red Wolf’s gender. This isn’t any kind of historic revisionism spurred by the human feminist movement — Sagrim-Ur’s shifting gender shows up in the most ancient tribal legends. It serves two purposes for the tribe.'

The two purposes are reinforcing 'that even spirits close to the People are alien beings.' And 'the constant change of gender - often within the same story - is a linguistic device reinforcing the idea that change is constant.'

Also, you're not a dumbass. I was going to post a response the day the thread popped up, but then saw you responding to it and wondered if it was one of the 'This is a place for my ideas' threads. Then it sort of devolved into discussions about Red Wolf in canon and I forgot about it.

Anyways here's what I had.

I think Death Wolf is called out as (alone among the eight totems) nomadic and travelling, though it mentions 'Whether this is because she rarely visits her hidden domain or she truly lacks one is unknown,' but I like your description, probably not with an Avernian Gate since she has a pretty big and aggressive enemy there, but I like to imagine the lair would have bones of forgotten and dead beings, Pangaeans among them, who she occasionally uses a godlike variant of Bone Gnaw on to steal their secrets through necromancies.

Black Wolf would probably have a very fecund and earthy scent, maybe even in a hollow under rich soil likely torn from the heart of Gaia herself. Pathways that parallel leylines would probably lead to sacred territories throughout the world with watchers slaved to the spirit god everywhere.

Red Wolf is easy to imagine being nomadic the way Death Wolf was depicted, with them appearing in cities across the world and time and space but their likely lair would be some forgotten or lost city of ancient mysticism (perhaps one of those stuck in the Gauntlet) they can scrounge around through, never at a loss to find some novel concept or idea or hint of the future. Or maybe shifting to newer and newer lairs as they stumble upon them. He's a bit of a Trickster god to him so probably the most likely to steal or inhabit another entity's god lair without them knowing.

Winter Wolf probably has a Borea like home in clouds or mountain ranges (as a Place-That-Isn't not really a place you can walk to), with glaciers full of enemies too powerful to slay that have been bound in ice through the wolf gods inexorable patience and power.

Fenris-ur's probably in a dark and dank place that most people (but not werewolves) wouldn't notice was littered with the gory remnants of gods and heroes that sought to slay it. Chains and other divinely-forged bondage would be in pieces scattered around, slick and dripping with divine gore.

[Guest]

Demigod Beast you are NOT a dumbass! I wasn’t agreeing with that part. I was agreeing with the part about the God-Machine.

[Demigod Beast]

Demigod Beast you are NOT a dumbass! I wasn’t agreeing with that part. I was agreeing with the part about the God-Machine.

LOL I was saying "I'm a dumbass" because the post I made...was meant for the Beast forum! Looking back on it, now, it WAS nevertheless appropriate for this thread, wasn't it?

[Demigod Beast]

I picture Soulless Wolf's Place-That-Isn't is a nightmarish labyrinth of Escher-like layout, mixed with the Winchester House and the general vibe and feel of Changeling's the Hesge. (Not that it IS the Hedge, but rather that it shares similarities WITH the Hedge.)

Here, every door opens to the wrong room, every stairwell is shattered, every tree is rotted and dead and clouds of flies erupt from surfaces seemingly with strategic intent. Navigational magic becomes actively deceptive to the user, and Gifts manifest in twisted ways, even if the werewolf in question is NOT Asah Gadar.

It would be a Wound, obviously. Several Maeltinet of several different Maeljin could be
found there, feasting on the worst kinds of Essence and growing fat and plump and content.

[Helur]

To me it's not correct to say that ''spirits have no gender'', talking about the first wolves.
It's more correct to say that ''gender or no-gender of *firstborn name* depends on the local uratha culture, pack or wathever''.
A Blood Talons sisterhood-pack of old foundation would follow Fenris as a female firstborn fighter, maybe. A Mars-cult of Blood Talons from southern europe maybe would see him as Romolus or Ares, masculine and aggressive. Another pack , more spiritual, or more focused strictly on the hunt and the fight, would just regard Fenris as a spirit with no sexual identity, just the destroyer wolf, war itself.
This gives more freedom in order to create an unique local uratha / anshega culture.



Huzuruth- Ur Place-that-isn't: a nightmarish woods with black trees, a red sky that taints everything with hate, disgust and malice. Pack of dire-like wolves with red and black fur, bloody jaws and dark red eyes stalk the forest. When you enter the place, your heart is filled with such a malicious rage that your anger becomes so strong that makes your nose and teeth bleed under the pressure. You want to shred of your own skin screaming in rage and fury. Hate flows in your veins and you just want one thing: to kill, swiftly, brutally and constantly, you don't even devour your prey, you want to kill and kill again. You are one with the hateful master of that place. The avatar of a wild and malicious god.
The skyes are red, the smell of fear is everywhere, the prey is near. Leaves are black and stained with blood. It looks like a cursed autumn, nothing has color except black as hate and red as pure fucking carnage.
Dire Wolf will open your chest and fill your heart with eternal, neverending, bittering hate and savagery.
Only the Predator Kings can try to channel it's rage and maybe, maybe, find a spark of savage and brutal freedom, a spark of purity of an ancient time that will give to them the hope of a new Pangea, a reddish-yellow primordial savannah, the most forbidden and sacred of Dire Wolf's places: a warm and sunset zone full of reddish woods, blue rivers and american desert-like sands. A wild and untamed place, far from hate, malice and revenge, where the air is pure and the smell of the wild prey is near, a place where , maybe, for a second, will give them peace.
But this is plase isn't.
Only hate and savagery remain.