A Question Concerning Firstborn And Places-That-Aren't

[Tessie]

To me it's not correct to say that ''spirits have no gender'', talking about the first wolves.
It's more correct to say that ''gender or no-gender of *firstborn name* depends on the local uratha culture, pack or wathever''.
A Blood Talons sisterhood-pack of old foundation would follow Fenris as a female firstborn fighter, maybe. A Mars-cult of Blood Talons from southern europe maybe would see him as Romolus or Ares, masculine and aggressive. Another pack , more spiritual, or more focused strictly on the hunt and the fight, would just regard Fenris as a spirit with no sexual identity, just the destroyer wolf, war itself.
This gives more freedom in order to create an unique local uratha / anshega culture.

Gender is determined by the individual, not outside perceptions. Uratha myths may use specific pronouns and some packs may traditionally refer to them as gendered (like Father Wolf and Mother Luna) but that doesn't change the fact that spirits have no gender.

[Helur]

Gender is determined by the individual, not outside perceptions. Uratha myths may use specific pronouns and some packs may traditionally refer to them as gendered (like Father Wolf and Mother Luna) but that doesn't change the fact that spirits have no gender.

I included "no gender" and I included the fact that uratha can refer to them as gendered.
My concern is about uratha perception. Nothing can stop them to identify their firstborn as they want in order to support their own culture , that may be' open minded as far as fanatical or single minded.

[Tessie]

I included "no gender" and I included the fact that uratha can refer to them as gendered.
My concern is about uratha perception. Nothing can stop them to identify their firstborn as they want in order to support their own culture , that may be' open minded as far as fanatical or single minded.

I replied to this:

To me it's not correct to say that ''spirits have no gender'', talking about the first wolves.

[Demigod Beast]

Gender is meaningless to most spirits, unless those spirits are specifically Resonant with a gender (such as a pregnancy-spirit being "female"). This is especially true at Rank 6+, where literal game mechanics no longer completely apply. If Fenris-Ur wants to manifest as female, then it's female...but only for that specific circumstance and time!place.

[Guest]

Yes, but the Firstborn were actually Uratha who only later Ascended to become spirits. They probably had genders originally. Or am I confused about their origin?

[Guest]

I mean, Father Wolf and Luna had to manifest physical bodies to have sex, so it makes sense that their children would’ve had bodies too.

[nofather]

Yes, but the Firstborn were actually Uratha who only later Ascended to become spirits. They probably had genders originally. Or am I confused about their origin?

Yes, they were never Uratha. They were Pangaeans, which means they had physical forms that were both spirit and flesh (while not being spirits, or fleshly animals). They're weird. But after the fall of Pangaea they became spirits like all the others.

There's some similar terms scattered across the books and in first edition some were used interchangably.

But.

1. Father Wolf was Pangaean. Pangaeans are introduced in Dark Eras, specifically Sundered World, though they appear in Dark Eras 2 as well.
2. Firstborn were Pangaean children of Father Wolf, either with other entities or spawned from himself. With the Fall of Pangaea, Pangaeans either became spirits or (Dark Eras, p58), 'became horrors entirely of the world of Flesh. The latter kind succumbed to the ravages of time as the ages passed, passing into myth as monsters of legend.' There's a bunch of these, by the way, more than there are tribes. You can see a bit more about Pangaeans in this thread, with some more in this one, and while they can present themselves as solidly gendered they seem way ambiguous. When it comes to them as spirits, not every spirit is going to teach a lesson about change and some are going to appear one way or another or neither or both.
3. The First Pack was a bunch of ravening shapeshifting monsters that followed around Father Wolf, they are close to being Uratha but not Uratha and not friendly to them. They likely died with him. A couple times in first edition 'The First Pack' was used to describe the Firstborn when hunting as a pack.
4. Uratha seem to be created with a heavy influence from Wolf and Moon, but creating an entire species that seems to spawn itself out of humanity was probably more complex to do than however complicated a wolf having sex with the moon would be. Big, beyond the space-program level magic.

[Guest]

Ohhhh. I thought the Uratha were literally the biological descendants of the Firstborn mating with various Wolf-Blooded humans. Thanks for explaining.

[Tessie]

I don't think Dark Eras specifies what the Firstborn were, but they could potentially have been spirits all along since they were the children of Wolf (a Pangaean) and various spirits, iirc. Certainly more than just spirits, though, which is reflected even in modern times as only the Firstborn are known to have become Tribal Totems. Other spirits are Lodge Totems at best.

[wyrdhamster]

Maybe it's my reading of Sundered World and other sources, but I do not agree with or want to expand some points made by NoFather...

[*]The First Pack was a bunch of ravening shapeshifting monsters that followed around Father Wolf, they are close to being Uratha but not Uratha and not friendly to them. They likely died with him. A couple times in first edition 'The First Pack' was used to describe the Firstborn when hunting as a pack.

I do not see in Sundered World text mentioning that First Pack were not the Uratha itself. From Dark Eras text it points that First Pack were simply Alfa or Bodhisattvas of the Hunt in this (Pre)Sundering World.

The First Pack are monsters. Snarling, snapping, and slavering, this court of ancient werewolves follows the Great Predator in its shadow and join directly in its hunts. Some Uratha venerate them as progenitors of the species and paragons of the primal hunt — but only the eldest, fiercest Uratha would willingly go near them. The First Pack cares as little for other Uratha as Father Wolf does. Huge, warped, and savage, the First Pack are a far cry from later generations of werewolves. They have surrendered themselves so utterly no the hunt that they know nothing else.

Text seems to imply that First Pack is simply Primal Urge 10 werewolves of 'first generation'.

[*]Uratha seem to be created with a heavy influence from Wolf and Moon, but creating an entire species that seems to spawn itself out of humanity was probably more complex to do than however complicated a wolf having sex with the moon would be. Big, beyond the space-program level magic.

Lodge of Quicksilver Children are canonically dwelling into mystery of Uratha race creation. They theory is that direct children of Moon and Wolf were shapeshifting Idigam - and Uratha are 'grandchildren', coming from Idigam possessing humans. They are described on page 216 of WtF 2E corebook. I made their fan 2E proper write also here.

[Primordial newcomer]

Maybe it's my reading of Sundered World and other sources, but I do not agree with or want to expand some points made by NoFather...



I do not see in Sundered World text mentioning that First Pack were not the Uratha itself. From Dark Eras text it points that First Pack were simply Alfa or Bodhisattvas of the Hunt in this (Pre)Sundering World.



Text seems to imply that First Pack is simply Primal Urge 10 werewolves of 'first generation'.



Lodge of Quicksilver Children are canonically dwelling into mystery of Uratha race creation. They theory is that direct children of Moon and Wolf were shapeshifting Idigam - and Uratha are 'grandchildren', coming from Idigam possessing humans. They are described on page 216 of WtF 2E corebook. I made their http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/werewolf-the-forsaken/1385270-2e-fan-lodge-of-quicksilver"]fan 2E proper write also here[/URL].

But that text not only explicitly called out the first pack as monstrous beasts, but implies Primal Urge 10 Uratha with "...eldest, fiercest Uratha". The fact they never get referred to as Uratha also seems to hint they are not the same thing

[Satchel]

But that text not only explicitly called out the first pack as monstrous beasts, but implies Primal Urge 10 Uratha with "...eldest, fiercest Uratha". The fact they never get referred to as Uratha also seems to hint they are not the same thing

"This court of ancient werewolves…" "other Uratha" and "later generations of werewolves," coupled with all the shit Shunned By The Moon has shown us the Uratha constitution is capable of twisting itself into, suggest quite directly that they're The Same Thing But Older And More Fucked Up.

[nofather]

I do not see in Sundered World text mentioning that First Pack were not the Uratha itself. From Dark Eras text it points that First Pack were simply Alfa or Bodhisattvas of the Hunt in this (Pre)Sundering World.

"The First Pack are monsters. Snarling, snapping, and slavering, this court of ancient werewolves follows the Great Predator in its shadow and join directly in its hunts. Some Uratha venerate them as progenitors of the species and paragons of the primal hunt — but only the eldest, fiercest Uratha would willingly go near them. The First Pack cares as little for other Uratha as Father Wolf does. Huge, warped, and savage, the First Pack are a far cry from later generations of werewolves. They have surrendered themselves so utterly to the hunt that they know nothing else."

This suggests to me that they are a prototype. Like the Geryo. Wolf has been trying to make a successor for a long time. Geryo. Firstborn. Perhaps Idigam, and First Pack. I also read into it that they don't have much in the way of Luna in them. But honestly I think it was just word of god from one of the writers who pointed out that the First Pack were not the same as Uratha. They've left a lot of room for people to do what they want with the First Pack.

Lodge of Quicksilver Children are canonically dwelling into mystery of Uratha race creation. They theory is that direct children of Moon and Wolf were shapeshifting Idigam - and Uratha are 'grandchildren', coming from Idigam possessing humans. They are described on page 216 of WtF 2E corebook. I made their fan 2E proper write also here.

Idigam can be anything. It's entirely possible they were another example of an attempt. Remember Moon and Wolf have an overlapping interest as boundary gods. From your other thread, where you suggested Wolf and Moon were in love because wolves howl at the moon.

Wrong way round - the reason that the Warden Moon and Great Predator bonded was that they were both vastly powerful boundary gods, nothing to do with anything animal. The reason wolves have a very strong symbolic connection to the Moon is probably *because* of that bonding in the first place.

I don't think Dark Eras specifies what the Firstborn were, but they could potentially have been spirits all along since they were the children of Wolf (a Pangaean) and various spirits, iirc. Certainly more than just spirits, though, which is reflected even in modern times as only the Firstborn are known to have become Tribal Totems. Other spirits are Lodge Totems at best.

Again, word of god here, but I understand that it is easy to take it both ways in Dark Eras. Back to Dark Eras, p58. "most Pangaeans that actually survived the Sundering slowly turned into spirits (like the Firstborn)" this can be read as 'They turn into spirits like the Firstborn are.' or 'They can turn into spirits, like the Firstborn did.'

However, further books should clear up any ambiguity.

A rule for Pangaeans. Dark Eras, p59, 'A Pangaean that loses all of its Corpus does not discorporate in the same way as a spirit, but leaves behind it a great carcass that will slowly wither and rot over the course of centuries. As long as its heart remains — its soul, a physically solid thing — it will reform just like a spirit that still has Essence when discorporated. If the heart is taken, then the Pangaean cannot reform; but as long as its carcass remains, should the heart be returned it will be restored to life.'

And so we have the Eaters of the Dead. In the core, Dorj Tserendjav believed he would find the lair of a Firstborn. And in the Pack, he did. P90, 'When he descended into the ancient, buried lair that the excavators had revealed, he found there the unthinkable — the corpse of the Firstborn he had been seeking. Colossal and crumbling, the remains seemed to be as much flesh as spirit. Seized by uncontrollable hunger, Dorj fell upon the carcass and devoured it over a day and a night; his primal spirit fused with his carrion meal, and the dead godling was reborn through him.' Ravening Wolf, resurrected as a Pangaean. Changed to spirit now, like the Firstborn. Because at the least, spirits don't leave corpses behind.

[Bunyip]

Yes, but the Firstborn were actually Uratha who only later Ascended to become spirits. They probably had genders originally. Or am I confused about their origin?

You’re confused about their origin. The Firstborn are the products of ‘intermingling’ between Urfarah and other things. The specifics of how these happened, we’ll probably never know. (See below.)

I mean, Father Wolf and Luna had to manifest physical bodies to have sex, so it makes sense that their children would’ve had bodies too.

You’re taking it too literally. The mystery of how a Panagaean (not that modern Uratha know what they were) and a spirit came together - if they ever did and it’s not just legend - may or may not have anything to do with physicality and sex. It’s one of those areas that is unlikely to ever be defined.

Edit: with more detail in answers above from nofather etc.

[Guest]

Bunyip thank you. Now I get it.