A Question Concerning Firstborn And Places-That-Aren't

[wyrdhamster]

bonus: there was a cult devoted to Apollo in ancient Greece, regarding lycanthropy, and the members called themselves ''the pure'', and no, it's not a joke
Put some gasoline on the fire!

It was used in the Forsaken by Rome Dark Eras Companion chapter, to point Peoni Greeks as Fire-Touched Wolf-Blooded clan. Also, pointed on the 'Mars as Wolf', but I really did not know it was real cultural thing. I must at least agree then native Italian Helur know more about ancient Rome culture than me humble Central Europe enthiusiast...

Helur perfect!!

[Helur]

Helur awesome! This gives me some great ideas. Thanks 😊.

bonus: there was a cult devoted to Apollo in ancient Greece, regarding lycanthropy, and the members called themselves ''the pure'', and no, it's not a joke
Put some gasoline on the fire!

Helur awesome! This gives me some great ideas. Thanks 😊.

[Helur]

Helur fascinating! Makes sense though. Roman society was dominated by men and Mars along with Jupiter and Apollo pretty much embodied the Roman concept of patriarchy.

I think Mars as depicted in the Roman Republic would make a great patron for the Storm Lords. What do you think?

I know some other random facts about Mars but I don’t wanna bore anyone lol.

Regarding Werewolf there are two key figures within southern european culture: Mars and Apollo.
Apollo was litterally a werewolf god. There is a myth about him shape shifting into a wolf to hunt and kill witches. I can go forward for hours. He was also depicted as a great wolf in Tebe, Greece.
About rome, there was another important figure: the black Apollo, ''Surto il Nero'', ''Surto the black'' , most probably a romanized Ade (Plutone). He was depicted as a man with pale skin and a black wolf-coat on his back, ruling the underworld. Mars would be a perfect figure for a lot of tribes, from the Blood Talons to the Storm Lords, but it also depends on the roman era you want to play. During the first stage of the republic and the ''regia'' era, Mars was probably worshipped as a masculine god of war in his animal features, wolf for the most.
During the Empire, Mars was a regarded in more elegant way, as a god of discipline and master of war, stuff that can be ok for Ivory Claws, Storm Lords or stubborn Blood Talons to me.
Apollo screams Fire Touched. Worshipping of the Sun, secret and extreme cults and so on.

Helur fascinating! Makes sense though. Roman society was dominated by men and Mars along with Jupiter and Apollo pretty much embodied the Roman concept of patriarchy.

I think Mars as depicted in the Roman Republic would make a great patron for the Storm Lords. What do you think?

I know some other random facts about Mars but I don’t wanna bore anyone lol.

[Helur]

It's why in my fanom is that in Scandiavia Uratha revere Father Moon ( from Mani) and Mother of Wolves ( from Angerboda). And in Rome werewolves worship 'Creators Lesbian Couple' with female Capitole Wolf Mother and Mother Luna.

I don't know if you know that, but historically, we in Italy regard Mars as the Wolf-God and father of Romolo. The Lupa Capitolina is nothing more but a symbol, it doens't have a particullary divine background (maybe it can give you more ideas or misteries for your chronicles, if you want). In italian universities we spend much more time learning about the archetype of Mars in order to understand the roman myth and customs, the Lupa, on a background level, has nothing much to offer. Mars, on the other hand, was regarded as a wolf-god, especially during the ''regia'' era of Rome, when the city was made up by bandits, killers and renegades. Hope you can find it interesting!

[Helur]

I replied to this:

yea sorry, I explained myself really bad, english is not my native lenguage and I'm not exactly a master of it. I mean basically what you said but adding some possible ''customization'' of the myths from various packs

Bunyip thank you. Now I get it.

[Bunyip]

Yes, but the Firstborn were actually Uratha who only later Ascended to become spirits. They probably had genders originally. Or am I confused about their origin?

You’re confused about their origin. The Firstborn are the products of ‘intermingling’ between Urfarah and other things. The specifics of how these happened, we’ll probably never know. (See below.)

I mean, Father Wolf and Luna had to manifest physical bodies to have sex, so it makes sense that their children would’ve had bodies too.

You’re taking it too literally. The mystery of how a Panagaean (not that modern Uratha know what they were) and a spirit came together - if they ever did and it’s not just legend - may or may not have anything to do with physicality and sex. It’s one of those areas that is unlikely to ever be defined.

Edit: with more detail in answers above from nofather etc.

[nofather]

I do not see in Sundered World text mentioning that First Pack were not the Uratha itself. From Dark Eras text it points that First Pack were simply Alfa or Bodhisattvas of the Hunt in this (Pre)Sundering World.

"The First Pack are monsters. Snarling, snapping, and slavering, this court of ancient werewolves follows the Great Predator in its shadow and join directly in its hunts. Some Uratha venerate them as progenitors of the species and paragons of the primal hunt — but only the eldest, fiercest Uratha would willingly go near them. The First Pack cares as little for other Uratha as Father Wolf does. Huge, warped, and savage, the First Pack are a far cry from later generations of werewolves. They have surrendered themselves so utterly to the hunt that they know nothing else."

This suggests to me that they are a prototype. Like the Geryo. Wolf has been trying to make a successor for a long time. Geryo. Firstborn. Perhaps Idigam, and First Pack. I also read into it that they don't have much in the way of Luna in them. But honestly I think it was just word of god from one of the writers who pointed out that the First Pack were not the same as Uratha. They've left a lot of room for people to do what they want with the First Pack.

Lodge of Quicksilver Children are canonically dwelling into mystery of Uratha race creation. They theory is that direct children of Moon and Wolf were shapeshifting Idigam - and Uratha are 'grandchildren', coming from Idigam possessing humans. They are described on page 216 of WtF 2E corebook. I made their fan 2E proper write also here.

Idigam can be anything. It's entirely possible they were another example of an attempt. Remember Moon and Wolf have an overlapping interest as boundary gods. From your other thread, where you suggested Wolf and Moon were in love because wolves howl at the moon.

Wrong way round - the reason that the Warden Moon and Great Predator bonded was that they were both vastly powerful boundary gods, nothing to do with anything animal. The reason wolves have a very strong symbolic connection to the Moon is probably *because* of that bonding in the first place.

I don't think Dark Eras specifies what the Firstborn were, but they could potentially have been spirits all along since they were the children of Wolf (a Pangaean) and various spirits, iirc. Certainly more than just spirits, though, which is reflected even in modern times as only the Firstborn are known to have become Tribal Totems. Other spirits are Lodge Totems at best.

Again, word of god here, but I understand that it is easy to take it both ways in Dark Eras. Back to Dark Eras, p58. "most Pangaeans that actually survived the Sundering slowly turned into spirits (like the Firstborn)" this can be read as 'They turn into spirits like the Firstborn are.' or 'They can turn into spirits, like the Firstborn did.'

However, further books should clear up any ambiguity.

A rule for Pangaeans. Dark Eras, p59, 'A Pangaean that loses all of its Corpus does not discorporate in the same way as a spirit, but leaves behind it a great carcass that will slowly wither and rot over the course of centuries. As long as its heart remains — its soul, a physically solid thing — it will reform just like a spirit that still has Essence when discorporated. If the heart is taken, then the Pangaean cannot reform; but as long as its carcass remains, should the heart be returned it will be restored to life.'

And so we have the Eaters of the Dead. In the core, Dorj Tserendjav believed he would find the lair of a Firstborn. And in the Pack, he did. P90, 'When he descended into the ancient, buried lair that the excavators had revealed, he found there the unthinkable — the corpse of the Firstborn he had been seeking. Colossal and crumbling, the remains seemed to be as much flesh as spirit. Seized by uncontrollable hunger, Dorj fell upon the carcass and devoured it over a day and a night; his primal spirit fused with his carrion meal, and the dead godling was reborn through him.' Ravening Wolf, resurrected as a Pangaean. Changed to spirit now, like the Firstborn. Because at the least, spirits don't leave corpses behind.

[Satchel]

But that text not only explicitly called out the first pack as monstrous beasts, but implies Primal Urge 10 Uratha with "...eldest, fiercest Uratha". The fact they never get referred to as Uratha also seems to hint they are not the same thing

"This court of ancient werewolves…" "other Uratha" and "later generations of werewolves," coupled with all the shit Shunned By The Moon has shown us the Uratha constitution is capable of twisting itself into, suggest quite directly that they're The Same Thing But Older And More Fucked Up.

[Primordial newcomer]

Maybe it's my reading of Sundered World and other sources, but I do not agree with or want to expand some points made by NoFather...



I do not see in Sundered World text mentioning that First Pack were not the Uratha itself. From Dark Eras text it points that First Pack were simply Alfa or Bodhisattvas of the Hunt in this (Pre)Sundering World.



Text seems to imply that First Pack is simply Primal Urge 10 werewolves of 'first generation'.



Lodge of Quicksilver Children are canonically dwelling into mystery of Uratha race creation. They theory is that direct children of Moon and Wolf were shapeshifting Idigam - and Uratha are 'grandchildren', coming from Idigam possessing humans. They are described on page 216 of WtF 2E corebook. I made their http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/werewolf-the-forsaken/1385270-2e-fan-lodge-of-quicksilver"]fan 2E proper write also here[/URL].

But that text not only explicitly called out the first pack as monstrous beasts, but implies Primal Urge 10 Uratha with "...eldest, fiercest Uratha". The fact they never get referred to as Uratha also seems to hint they are not the same thing

[wyrdhamster]

Maybe it's my reading of Sundered World and other sources, but I do not agree with or want to expand some points made by NoFather...

[*]The First Pack was a bunch of ravening shapeshifting monsters that followed around Father Wolf, they are close to being Uratha but not Uratha and not friendly to them. They likely died with him. A couple times in first edition 'The First Pack' was used to describe the Firstborn when hunting as a pack.

I do not see in Sundered World text mentioning that First Pack were not the Uratha itself. From Dark Eras text it points that First Pack were simply Alfa or Bodhisattvas of the Hunt in this (Pre)Sundering World.

The First Pack are monsters. Snarling, snapping, and slavering, this court of ancient werewolves follows the Great Predator in its shadow and join directly in its hunts. Some Uratha venerate them as progenitors of the species and paragons of the primal hunt — but only the eldest, fiercest Uratha would willingly go near them. The First Pack cares as little for other Uratha as Father Wolf does. Huge, warped, and savage, the First Pack are a far cry from later generations of werewolves. They have surrendered themselves so utterly no the hunt that they know nothing else.

Text seems to imply that First Pack is simply Primal Urge 10 werewolves of 'first generation'.

[*]Uratha seem to be created with a heavy influence from Wolf and Moon, but creating an entire species that seems to spawn itself out of humanity was probably more complex to do than however complicated a wolf having sex with the moon would be. Big, beyond the space-program level magic.

Lodge of Quicksilver Children are canonically dwelling into mystery of Uratha race creation. They theory is that direct children of Moon and Wolf were shapeshifting Idigam - and Uratha are 'grandchildren', coming from Idigam possessing humans. They are described on page 216 of WtF 2E corebook. I made their fan 2E proper write also here.

[Tessie]

I don't think Dark Eras specifies what the Firstborn were, but they could potentially have been spirits all along since they were the children of Wolf (a Pangaean) and various spirits, iirc. Certainly more than just spirits, though, which is reflected even in modern times as only the Firstborn are known to have become Tribal Totems. Other spirits are Lodge Totems at best.