[Idigam] Itzumazah, the Obsidian Butterfly

[LostLight]

Hey, if you want to bring imperialism into this, that's on you.

No. No, no, no, no, no, no? no. no. No! no. no. no. no..... no.

Please don't That thread is too good to die in such an horrible way.

[Papa Bear]

Hey, if you want to bring imperialism into this, that's on you.

Let's not and just say we did.

[BigDamnHero]

Is it by design that a lot of the Spirit Stuff in Forsaken so closely resembles Exalted? I remember laughing when I saw that 'wolves also use Essence, but now I see a ton of parallels: PCs are arguably heroic but flawed, hated and feared by those they try to protect, have a tendency to contend with mythical representations of things...Plus Itzumazah is rolling like, 20+ dice for most of her rolls.

Granted, I'd argue that if you're fighting her you're probably doing it wrong.

Any chance we could see a fully statted up example of one of her soldiers? Oooh, or a high-ranking spirit that she's altered in some terrible way?

For some reason my first thought was a bear, and in my head it looked like the one from Prophecy. Creepy, disgusting, and terrifying.

[Raistlin]

It just happened to be a little older than most and somehow able to remember another reality; a world that could have been but that, when the reality came together and manifested, became only a discared possibilty. And that's where its lover was trapped, The Obsidian Butterfly set forth, determined to find a way to break the walls of this reality.

Oh, crap. Her lover lives in the Abyss... AND SHE WANTS TO LET IT IN! :0

[Cinder]

Is it by design that a lot of the Spirit Stuff in Forsaken so closely resembles Exalted? I remember laughing when I saw that 'wolves also use Essence, but now I see a ton of parallels: PCs are arguably heroic but flawed, hated and feared by those they try to protect, have a tendency to contend with mythical representations of things...Plus Itzumazah is rolling like, 20+ dice for most of her rolls.

Granted, I'd argue that if you're fighting her you're probably doing it wrong.

Good point, it would be interesting to hear an "official" answer to that. Intentional or not, I agree both Werewolves games share some themes with Exalted, probably more than the other gamelines.

As for the strenght of the Idigams, yeah, a lonely pack could never hope to take one of them down easily, They are more a target for multiple packs and, even then, the werewolves have better to know the Idigam's ban. They are Rank 3 at least, with no known upper limit. Gurdilag, the Idigam mentioned in the core is described as a Rank 6 and the Idigams introduced in Wolfsbane are all Rank 5 of 4. Nasty stuff to deal with, and that's not even accounting all the special powers they have access to.

Any chance we could see a fully statted up example of one of her soldiers? Oooh, or a high-ranking spirit that she's altered in some terrible way?

It may take a while but yes, I have some sample Spirits to show. The idea was to post one of the Handmaidens, some corrupted spirits and a couple of alien ones. I'm also writing a small system to depict the transformation of captured spirits. Nothing big, just a small paragraph with few mechanics and suggestions, but it can help when you have to create a quick antagonist.

For some reason my first thought was a bear, and in my head it looked like the one from Prophecy. Creepy, disgusting, and terrifying.

That movie. I really have to watch it. It's been on my list since I discovered Werewolf The Apocalypse some time ago and it keeps cropping up here and there. But yes, that's the sort of things the Butterfly would create.

[LostLight]

Oh, crap. Her lover lives in the Abyss... AND SHE WANTS TO LET IT IN! :0

you meant- her lover is in the Abyss, she wants to let him in and maybe the God Machine is giving her an hand. Idigam+ Abyss+ God Machine= there is nowhere to run... No wonder I had a nightmare about her last night ::P

[Raistlin]

Why would the GM want to let an Abyssal Lord to mess with his status quo? he has already enough problems trying to maintain it with those pesky supernaturals glitches and rogue demons viruses around?

[StSword]

Yeah, the fluff screams abyssal to me to, but hardly necessary.

There are also the reality bending lovecraftian horrors from Second Sight.

Perhaps the OB's schnookums has a cult with weird and horrific abilities that would be more than happy to arrange a reunion.

Through the werewolves a curveball, since I don't think most idigam would even consider mere human minions.

[LostLight]

Why would the GM want to let an Abyssal Lord to mess with his status quo? he has already enough problems trying to maintain it with those pesky supernaturals glitches and rogue demons viruses around?

hey- it's a personal interpretation, and I don't claim it to be Cinder's true intention. It is simply that when you add the Black Sun, Death, a Butterfly, Aztec mythology and the Moon, you get something that sounds.. familiar (a.k.a, the "Butterfly Grave" and Death from the God Machine's story), plus the fact that one of the possible reasons for how she left the Moon was through the help of a "kindred spirit". For why would the God Machine would do it- I don't know. I'll have to make a chronicle around it to discover, which may contain other people who seek after the "black sun" (which we already have 3 canon ones) :P

[Furrly]

I admit that's something that came to my mind as well, not gonna lie.

I was aiming at something similar at the relationship between Marvel's Thanos and Death (not intentionally, but after you brainstorm a while and that's what comes out, you have to be honest with yourself) and kept the Butterfly a female because her blatant mythological inspiration is, but I can definitely see what your point is. Unfortunate implications that happen when you reverse the genders, too bad. I hoped that I could manage to write the Idigam without giving the wrong impression, but I guess I was not successfull. The sexes are indeed not meaning much when talking about spirits and the Butterfly is mad for reason that have nothing to do with her gender, but if that's only implied and my write-up sounds fishy, then I guess it's better to review it a bit. Apologies for screwing this up: I aknowledged the risks but ignored them.

I like you work asit is , great job

[Korogra]

Can't wait for the Bat-Hosts

[Cinder]

hey- it's a personal interpretation, and I don't claim it to be Cinder's true intention. It is simply that when you add the Black Sun, Death, a Butterfly, Aztec mythology and the Moon, you get something that sounds.. familiar (a.k.a, the "Butterfly Grave" and Death from the God Machine's story), plus the fact that one of the possible reasons for how she left the Moon was through the help of a "kindred spirit". For why would the God Machine would do it- I don't know. I'll have to make a chronicle around it to discover, which may contain other people who seek after the "black sun" (which we already have 3 canon ones) :P

It's up in the air, actually.

I mean, I know which answers I would use in my games and I have a series of reasons you can use to justify any option I offered but, following the great NWoD tradition of not giving blunt solutions to big mysteries, I preferred to leave it vague. To be fair, my first draft was a straight GMC story, with the Death option as the only "canon" one, but it felt really forced and awkward as I was writing it, so I restarted from scratch. I can tell you how I would introduce it in a chronicle, but it's only one of the possibilities.

As for Anthelios, well, that's even less defined, mainly because I'm still far from writing about it. It all started from the Bat Host and then went upward the WoD food chain. It is probably going to be a major Abyssal being, but all I have right now are a lot of little ideas that span across most of the gamelines (if the Sixth Mummy Guild turns out to be made of astronomers, I'm going to have a lot of fun) and I'll probably have to write some of those before I have a general picture good enough to show the entity behind it. This sort of "Black Sun Chronicle" it's without doubt my most ambitious project to date and, considering I write other stuff too, tend to get easily distracted and jump from an Onyx Path gameline to another without any reason, I don't think I'm going to finish it but, hey, you've got to try to raise the bar sometimes.

That being said, I thank everybody for your criticism and/or your appreciations and I'm glad it's sparking some discussion, in a way or the other. It's motivating, to say the least.

[LostLight]

in that case, I'm going to follow your material for the "black sun chronicle". Since it was hinted in the Slasher book that there is some "race" for completing the "black sun map", I'm pretty obsessed with anything (both canon and fanmade) which could be added to that head canon of mine- and your Butterfly fits right in :P

[Cinder]

Just a quick thing before going to bed, because if you found some time to comment, I feel like the least I can do is to answer. I may expand on this tomorrow when my eyes don't close themselves.

Why would the GM want to let an Abyssal Lord to mess with his status quo? he has already enough problems trying to maintain it with those pesky supernaturals glitches and rogue demons viruses around?

As I said, the GMC option is totally viable, but your doubts are understandable. My take on the Black Sun is still in the brainstorming phase, but I can say this for now:

I tend to draw heavily from mythology, especially when I'm working with Werewolf and Changeling. I change many things and adapt the others to the WoD, but if you know where to look, it's easy to track it back to the original source. In Aztec mythology, the Black Sun is indeed a symbol of death and fear, but also of rebirth (like butterflies). Likewise, in alchemy, the Black Sun, is the first step of the process to obtain the philosopher's stone, the destruction before the creation.

With that in mind, I would personally suggest that the GM, a subroutine of it or a program big enough to act on its own while still inside the system (like Death), might indeed have an interest into letting the Black Sun into our world. After all, if you have too many glitches and viruses, perhaps it's time to format and reboot the system. Nothing says that Anthelios would agree with being used this way, though...

Yeah, the fluff screams abyssal to me to, but hardly necessary.

There are also the reality bending lovecraftian horrors from Second Sight.

Perhaps the OB's schnookums has a cult with weird and horrific abilities that would be more than happy to arrange a reunion.

Through the werewolves a curveball, since I don't think most idigam would even consider mere human minions.

Of course. If you prefer to consider it a Second Sight horror, that's certainly an adequate solution. You don't have to bring other gamelines into this.

As for the cult, I don't have plans to describe a specific one for now because I've written an Idigam cult not long ago for Mussughana, the Locust Host patron, and, even as a great fan of Lovecraft, you can only write a certain number of hidden cults before your ideas begin to overlap. Perhaps in the future, when the well of ideas I use for cultists refills a bit.

in that case, I'm going to follow your material for the "black sun chronicle". Since it was hinted in the Slasher book that there is some "race" for completing the "black sun map", I'm pretty obsessed with anything (both canon and fanmade) which could be added to that head canon of mine- and your Butterfly fits right in :P

Glad to hear that. The Black Sun map the Driver is looking for is going to be mentioned for sure. Gotta love Slasher

[StSword]

While I understand the point you are trying to make, it is a bit out of the werewolf raison d'etre. second sight is a generic book despite it's overly friendly to mage.