Werewolf's "ghost"?

[wyrdhamster]

So I have idea for my Sweden chronicle that players will hear a legend of old pre-Viking era werewolf "chief" who "was blessed by gods and collected powerful weapons" ( i.e. many klaives ). So I will lead my players to look for the lost tomb of "hero" for it's treasures. As with this kind of "ghost stories", I would want the original owner return to them as ghost they will need to fight of in final of the story. But I'm also remembering there was in gameline something about Uratha not leaving ghosts, but ancestral spirits? So can werewolf have ghost, and if not, how the ancestral spirits different from it?

[Ephsy]

Couple of misconceptions: Ancestor spirits aren't a single Uratha's representation, but the spiritual representation of a whole bloodline of Uratha. Many may take the most recognizable traits of the most renowned, famous and celebrated Uratha of said bloodline, but you should keep in mind that the spirit isn't singular, it's plural.

Indeed, werewolves are assumed not to leave shades after they die... But what if this particular one did? Why? How? Was he cursed? How can he be put to rest? Alternatively, can't you use an Ancestor spirit there instead of a ghost? The same feel can be easily achieved with them.

[Suleri Drals]

Canonicaly, i think that werewolfs cannot become ghosts but werewolfs with a enough high Primal Urge can become spirits after death.
But you can makes otherly if you want but that removes a potentially interesting theme (Werewolves have souls or they are spirits in flesh, no realy more than the Urged/Claimed ?).

Maybe y you can create a threat of ghosts werewolves and insisting that this is supposed to be impossible. (which can make it more disturbing : "simples" ghosts don't seems necessarily for werewolves who deals with spirits; but impossible ghosts ? it adds mystery)

[wyrdhamster]

This particular "ghost" is after a true bloody werewolf warlord that made a slaughter of local werebears in his living. He still thinks he made just thing, but bear spirits cursed him.

Couple of misconceptions: Ancestor spirits aren't a single Uratha's representation, but the spiritual representation of a whole bloodline of Uratha. Many may take the most recognizable traits of the most renowned, famous and celebrated Uratha of said bloodline, but you should keep in mind that the spirit isn't singular, it's plural.

Indeed, werewolves are assumed not to leave shades after they die... But what if this particular one did? Why? How? Was he cursed? How can he be put to rest? Alternatively, can't you use an Ancestor spirit there instead of a ghost? The same feel can be easily achieved with them.

So this is out of question, because I was thinking about this particular individual werewolf. Really, I'm looking on something as most as human "ghost" an Uratha can have. If nothing other comes up as better solution I will make him ancestral spirit, but he would be "ghost in the disguise" then.

Canonicaly, i think that werewolfs cannot become ghosts but werewolfs with a enough high Primal Urge can become spirits after death.

Other spirits than Ancestors? Like not "Spirit of Bloody Vikings", but "Spirit of Rognvald, the Bear Killer"?

Maybe y you can create a threat of ghosts werewolves and insisting that this is supposed to be impossible. (which can make it more disturbing : "simples" ghosts don't seems necessarily for werewolves who deals with spirits; but impossible ghosts ? it adds mystery)

I'm still buffered you can summon the "Spirit" ( truly ghost ) of your named ancestors. Why can't young werewolf summon his centrues great hero forfather when werewolves are half spiritual beings? Werewolf can summon his whole bloodline spirit, but not his great-grandfather that was Uratha legend? Why is this?

[Jesuncolo]

Well perhaps, a ghost werewolf leaves a wolf geist behind. O.o

[Charlaquin]

Well, this gets into the metaphysics of the World of Darkness ephemeral entities a bit. Everything in the world of darkness, except humans, have spiritual reflections (not necessarily every individual thing, but there are spirits of everything). Likewise, humans seem to be the only things that leave ghosts after they die. So there seems to be a certain amount of mutual exclusivity, and since werewolves are part spirit, it makes sense they would not be able to create ghosts. Although on the other hand, they are part human. You could always say that in your particular take on the setting, a Werewolf's spirit side lives on after the death of their physical body, unless what ever killed them destroyed the spirit as well as the flesh - a supernatural attack, or silver might do that, but a wood chipper might not. That would give them a human-like tendency to leave echoes, without that echo being the ghost of a wolf or a spirit. Also consider that, especially with the new ephemeral entity rules, the only real mechanical difference between ghosts and spirits is their influences and starting manifestation condition.

[nofather]

Ancestor-spirits are not ghosts or the souls of dead people returning to the world of the living. An ancestor-spirit is a spiritual amalgamation of an entire bloodline, the wisdom and personalities of generations given a single spiritual form.

[wyrdhamster]

You could always say that in your particular take on the setting, a Werewolf's spirit side lives on after the death of their physical body, unless what ever killed them destroyed the spirit as well as the flesh - a supernatural attack, or silver might do that, but a wood chipper might not. That would give them a human-like tendency to leave echoes, without that echo being the ghost of a wolf or a spirit. Also consider that, especially with the new ephemeral entity rules, the only real mechanical difference between ghosts and spirits is their influences and starting manifestation condition.

I'm more inclined to treat "ghost" werewolves as minor spirits. You can summon your great-grandfather, and he won't be merely shade of himself. He would be quasi-material spirit of his great deeds and legend. To be frank, he would be story of your grandfathers deeds, than less his own memories. And I would treat them as half ghost, half spirits. They are just Ancestors.

[wyrdhamster]

Ancestor-spirits are not ghosts or the souls of dead people returning to the world of the living. An ancestor-spirit is a spiritual amalgamation of an entire bloodline, the wisdom and personalities of generations given a single spiritual form.

So after death, even if corebook says you become a spirit, you are not? Possibly joining only Ancestor Spirit of the bloodline?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfein]

Ancestor-spirits are not ghosts or the souls of dead people returning to the world of the living. An ancestor-spirit is a spiritual amalgamation of an entire bloodline, the wisdom and personalities of generations given a single spiritual form.

Got any Backing on that one? Sounds like opinion to me.

[nofather]

Got any Backing on that one? Sounds like opinion to me.

Lodges the Faithful, Page 38, under 'Ancestor-Spirits.' It's the first lines, word for word.

Here's the rest:
Therefore, Cerberans are not oath-bound to destroy ancestor-spirits and prevent them from ever influencing the living. However, in reality, this is for any individual Uratha to decide where her beliefs fall on the matter. Few Lodge of Cerberus werewolves hate or dislike ancestor-spirits, but few would ever bond themselves to one as a pack totem either.

So after death, even if corebook says you become a spirit, you are not? Possibly joining only Ancestor Spirit of the bloodline?

I don't believe the corebook says that werewolves become spirits after death. It's possible for them to become one with an ancestral spirit, but otherwise when a werewolf dies they just die.

[Ephsy]

Got any Backing on that one? Sounds like opinion to me.

Lore of the Forsaken, pg19; Predators pg64.

[wyrdhamster]

I thought more on matter, and as I understand the gameline idea of Ancestor-spirits, it's not exactly what I would want to have in my games. To be precises, I want them and quasi-ghost werewolf spirits that are probably proto-Ancestor-spirits like developers envision them. So here is my take on the subject. I thought more on matter, and as I understand the gameline idea of Ancestor-spirits, it's not exactly what I would want to have in my games. To be precises, I want them and quasi-ghost werewolf spirits that are probably proto-Ancestor-spirits like developers envision them. So here is my take on the subject.

Ancestor ( ephemeral being )
Uratha are cretures of both flesh and spirit. Legend say's that sometime one of powerful werewolves is rewarded by spirits for his duty by lingering after his death as concept of his dedication. Those ephemeral beings are called Ancestors.

Ancestors are entities on verge of two worlds. They are mostly a spirits, but they are based on individual werewolves personality, like ghosts are for humans. But, in reality, are spirits of duties and deeds particular Uratha embodied in his life, not echeos of his own psyche. Those that knows the Geists of Underworld say that Ancestors are “second part of the puzzle” - if Geists are ghost that by become some part spirits, Ancestors are spirits that are based on vague after image of werewolves soul that would become ghost – if werewolves weren't half spirits themselves. Ancestor is this spiritual part of one of People that linger after his death in Shadow Realm, bounded by eternal duties he himself made in his life.

But this honor is reserved only for most dedicated and spiritual of Uratha. Sometime Ancestors of one bloodline merge in one more powerful being that is more representation of families history as a whole. With each merging of Ancestors, family spirits are less and less about individual members duty and memory, but more about linage of bloodline as a whole. Most of the time individual Ancestors can linger as themselves only few centuries in Shadow Realm before merging with families spirits, but this period varies on each case. Some cheat this system by bounding with fetishes or places, like they own tombs, laying dormant for years, starving for Essence.

System
Notice: Rules below assume usage of God Machine Chronicles ephemeral rules and cosmology so if you didn't readed before – get the PDF for free and compare to those mechanics.
Ancestors are new type of spirits that are created after very powerful werewolf dies. To become one, Uratha need to have Primal Urge 6 or more and he become Ancestor Spirits of Rank equal to his Primal Urge – 5. His Attributes are average of all three in his corporal categories, just like ghosts are. His Renown becomes his Influences as Ancestor, even if they are higher than his normal Rank. His Gifts become Numina, but only those that he can use in his new, ephemeral state. Bans and Banes varies, but Ancestors mostly cultivate their restrictions from Tribe, Lodge or Totem patrons.
Example:
Rongvald Paws Crusher is powerful Uratha that is slain on his line of duty. Spirits are rewarding him with joining as one of them, so he becomes Ancestor. He has Primal Urge 7 and Renowns of Purity 4, Cunning 3 and Glory 2. He becomes Rank 2 spirit with Purity 4, Cunning 3 and Glory 2 as it's Influances, even the both Purity and Cunning are higher than his Rank.

Family spirits are beings called in Lore of Forasken and Predators as Ancestors-spirits.

So what do you think on this setting shard?

[Satchel]

Point of order: the definite bit of metaphysics is not "werewolves don't leave ghosts."

It's "werewolf ghosts do not descend to the Underworld."

[StSword]

There's another take you might consider.

Werewolves age half as fast as normal people, and it's believed that increasing primal urge slows that down even further.

So elder werewolves spend more and more time in the hisil and become more and more spirit like.

So, what if your "werewolf ghost" is an elder werewolf who became a full spirit instead of dying?

In second sight one storyline was about a spell that turned an occultist into a spirit. If a spiritually null human can achieve it, a werewolf, who is halfway there to begin with, certainly ought to be able to do it.