Changing Breeds 2.0- Because Someone had to

[Krobeles]

Please don't compare Nazis to anything other than Nazis.

It's presented from an eco-terrorist viewpoint for a reason, mainly so as not to step on Werewolf's toes the way the Fera did the Garou. It may not be your thing (it wasn't mine) but there was a major theme from the cWoD that wasn't covered by nWoD and CB was the chance to fill that niche. Unfortunately the execution was pretty bad from a mechanical standpoint, it also needed significantly more page count to properly flesh out the breeds. You learn more from your failures and all that.

Comparing stuff to Nazi's is just an expression. Seemed like an apt comparion, given that a steriotype that the beasts could have, with regards to humans were "Aaargh! They're all nature-destroying scum! Lets round them up and murder them!".

I dont know, though. Was it really a nessesary theme to cover? The WoD hasn't covered Autism or Pedophillia as a major theme, but I dont really think any of those things are wanted, called for or even aproriate to the setting. I dont think the execution was bad, in fact I think the book was entertaining - If it had been for a different game line, other than the WoD. We dont need furries being all tree-hugging in the WoD. It doesn't exactly scream "Gothic Horror" in the slighest. Thats the issue, from the point where I see it.

[Hexmeister Vic]

Comparing stuff to Nazi's is just an expression. Seemed like an apt comparion, given that a steriotype that the beasts could have, with regards to humans were "Aaargh! They're all nature-destroying scum! Lets round them up and murder them!".

I dont know, though. Was it really a nessesary theme to cover? The WoD hasn't covered Autism or Pedophillia as a major theme, but I dont really think any of those things are wanted, called for or even aproriate to the setting. I dont think the execution was bad, in fact I think the book was entertaining - If it had been for a different game line, other than the WoD. We dont need furries being all tree-hugging in the WoD. It doesn't exactly scream "Gothic Horror" in the slighest. Thats the issue, from the point where I see it.

Funny, only one group of Shifters in the setting, the Pure tribes, comes close to suggesting human genocide. And more than a few breeds have at least co-opted, if not hijacked, human society for their own ends, rather than sticking to the wilderness.

[Elfive]

True. Eco-terroist-nazis work fine as antagonists. They're called the Predator Kings.

[Khalvin8]

I can see a real need for CB as a source in three ways. As PCs, as Enemies, and as Allies.

There are players who want to play a fantasy. For some a different animal then a wolf is just more comfortable. For others the opportunity to play a new animal is just new place to approach the nWoD universe. So far I see we are agreeing the 1e material is lacking. Now that it somewhat dated I think we can delve the concepts of CB in a way STs and Players can not only appreciate, but further enjoy.

As NPCs CB present an untapped space for new stories and concepts. Thus far animism stories have revolved around Spirit Claimed and Changelings. I can think of a dozen different ways to use CB as antagonists and mysterious NPC assistants for my Wolf game.

So thank you Hexmeister. These stats and write-outs are an invaluable resource.

Some of us have posted ideas for how CB can fit into the cosmology of Wolf and nWoD at large. Some of these ideas are very different from each other. I think there are a lot of important questions to ask if a full 2e source is created. Is it okay for a CB concept to be more powerful then a Wolf? Where do CB come from? What ratio of a CB population is appropriate? How do CB interact or relate with the Hisil, spirits, Idigam, the undead/Death and other Main Line Antagonists?

I'll take a shot at the first question: Mechanical Balance is imposible to achieve. Restricting design because of balance considerations is unnecessary and backwards. STs should take care to employ the right opportunities for all Players in consideration of the Chronicle. Authors of source material merely come up with responsible concepts for Players and STs to use. So toying with power levels can open up new places to explore ideas if left in the hand a of knowledgeable ST.

[Thorbes]

Balance within the same game-line should be a concern. If these changing breeds are suposed to be played along each other and the Uratha, there should be some kind of oportunity cost involved. They should be, all things consider, almost a similar choice. Some animals like the Land Titans don't seem appropiate, for example. Great cats, other canids like hyenas or foxes, boars, bears, great apes, etc are much easier to fit. Even wierder animals can be worked out, like arachnids, vermin, some lizards, etc.

[wyrdhamster]

Balance within the same game-line should be a concern. If these changing breeds are suposed to be played along each other and the Uratha, there should be some kind of oportunity cost involved. They should be, all things consider, almost a similar choice. Some animals like the Land Titans don't seem appropiate, for example. Great cats, other canids like hyenas or foxes, boars, bears, great apes, etc are much easier to fit. Even wierder animals can be worked out, like arachnids, vermin, some lizards, etc.

I generally agree with this - only I have concerns for Land Titans and a like as not "appropriate". They could be used, they just need to use balanced mechanics with rest of splats. For the Old Ones Chronicles, using GMC rules, we coined this kind of rules - they are based on War with the Pure, but I made them to save the spirit of diversity in original Changing Breeds. If needed are some 2ed patches - just write here.

I made that character can take negative modifiers to rise whole modifiers adjustment for a form. Each modifier is 1 Form Point. Size and Perception modifiers are also counted as Form Points. Uratha are having total sum of bonuses of:

• Throwback: 5 Form Points
• War Beast: 11 Form Points
• Dire Beast: 10 Form Points
• Primal Beast: 7 Form Points

So here are stats for Storm Bears, as I want to use one in my today game.

Storm Bears
Gigantic ur-(were)bears of Scandinavia looks like this.

• Throwback: Strength +2, Dexterity -1, Stamina +2, Size +1, Perception +1
• War Beast: Strength +5, Dexterity - 2, Stamina +4, Size +3, Perception +1
• Dire Beast: Strength+4, Dexterity -1, Stamina +3, Size +2, Perception +2
• Primal Beast: Strength +3 Dexterity -1, Stamina +2, Size +1, Perception +2

What do you think about it?

I also would leave the Accords as they are - they have sense in Changing Breeds setting, those "Auspices, But Not", and let characters to grow and change, based on the play - I treat them like Refinements in Promethean - they are not inborn, they are chosen.

[Darksider]

Werewolf was never a game about Gothic Horror in either its Apocalypse or Forsaken incarnation. Says so right on the covers. CB's as they've been presented don't fit that style of horror either.

Still nice work though, keep it up.

[Hexmeister Vic]

Balance within the same game-line should be a concern. If these changing breeds are suposed to be played along each other and the Uratha, there should be some kind of oportunity cost involved. They should be, all things consider, almost a similar choice. Some animals like the Land Titans don't seem appropiate, for example. Great cats, other canids like hyenas or foxes, boars, bears, great apes, etc are much easier to fit. Even wierder animals can be worked out, like arachnids, vermin, some lizards, etc.

I'm surprised none of my added Tribes got any questions yet (werejellies, werecrabs, wereants, werehippos, oh my!). Most are balanced by not being as subtle, or as fast, or as killy as Uratha, while most of the bigger things need that added strength and mass to get around not being built for decisive victory.

Breed Gifts are on the way. I just got the Bag of Tricks aspects converted, and they look deviously fun to me.

[Hexmeister Vic]

Werewolf was never a game about Gothic Horror in either its Apocalypse or Forsaken incarnation. Says so right on the covers. CB's as they've been presented don't fit that style of horror either.

Still nice work though, keep it up.

Thanks, Darksider.

[Shock]

The elephant in the room are the Hosts.

The Host occupy the position that the CBs would have to fill. They have a role that they are filling the Shadow. They have (or had) backing a Spirit-God, and they clash/ally with the Uratha every now and then.

Some of us have posted ideas for how CB can fit into the cosmology of Wolf and nWoD at large. Some of these ideas are very different from each other. I think there are a lot of important questions to ask if a full 2e source is created. Is it okay for a CB concept to be more powerful then a Wolf? Where do CB come from? What ratio of a CB population is appropriate? How do CB interact or relate with the Hisil, spirits, Idigam, the undead/Death and other Main Line Antagonists?

1. CB concept in terms of power against Uratha pound for pound is less of an issue for me than a Breed having a theme and being internally consistent to it. The Uratha have their own game line and as such, will naturally occur KEWL POWERS over time. A 2E book focusing on the CBs will be a small snapshot that will remain static. Gifts can be bolted on as need be but screw up the theme of the Breed and well...

2. 2E would be better off adapting War Against the Pure's viewpoint of how shifters come to be. Some infect, others breed, while others are simply cursed. Again, internal mythologies consistent to the theme of that Breed would be great.

3. This I would like to see. 1E CB basically threw it's hands up at the Shadow and didn't do anything with it. I would like to see dark mirrors of the Uratha wandering around the Shadow. Falcon men praising Mother Sky and Father Sun while following their own "Wolf must hunt". Men of the Bear taking refuge in dark caves in the Shadow, sleeping next to prized Loci as they follow "The Bear must Protect". Roach and maggot men spreading through a city with the inbuilt disturbing urge to feed on garbage and to reproduce in corpses, all while praising the Lord of Flies.

If I was put in charge of a new CB book, I would stress the themes of extinction and adaption. Some Breeds (note the most powerful ones) are going to die out. Nature is a cruel bitch at times and she's using humanity as her instrument to preform a cull. Megafauna Breeds are on the edge and on the gateway of vanishing from this world. Other Breeds, however, have adapted just fine and even thrived in the brave new world. Adapt or die.

Second, create a better emphasis on each Breed's theme and role in the Shadow. What does the Raven-shifter do? Well the symbol and theme of a bird is that they are curious little buggers who will steal everything that isn't nailed down. Who is their spirit patron? Well, naturally you got a host of spirit choirs of ravens, magpies, crows along with night, curiosity, and thievery. Build a mythology about cunning. How do they deal with the Uratha? Well.. how does a thief deal with a cop?

edit: Thinking about it a bit more. I would make a flat "Bird shifters" and angle them towards tribes with renown. Falcon = Purity. Raven = Cunning. Eagle = Glory. Owl = Wisdom, Hawk = Honor (may need to replace Hawk with something else but it works as a placeholder).

So on and so forth.

[Thorbes]

Thinking about it a bit more. I would make a flat "Bird shifters" and angle them towards tribes with renown. Falcon = Purity. Raven = Cunning. Eagle = Glory. Owl = Wisdom, Hawk = Honor (may need to replace Hawk with something else but it works as a placeholder).

I like this aproach. I think it may be the best way to categorize the breeds. Have each Breed (canids, monkeys, felines) be divided in 5 different groups, one per Renown. Say Canids: Honor (dogs), Cunning (foxes), Glory (Hyenas), etc, etc.

[Shock]

I like this aproach. I think it may be the best way to categorize the breeds. Have each Breed (canids, monkeys, felines) be divided in 5 different groups, one per Renown. Say Canids: Honor (dogs), Cunning (foxes), Glory (Hyenas), etc, etc.

Yep. Give the Breeds a Theme(The Wolf Must Hunt) and a Shadow Patron, then divide the species themselves up into Auspices. Ergo, if you're a Falcon shifter, you're primary renown will be Purity and follows the same rules as the Rahu and so on and so forth.

[Thorbes]

I have this idea about Hyenas being concerned with physical undead, like vampires, zombies and such. They could be the favored prey.

[Shock]

I have this idea about Hyenas being concerned with physical undead, like vampires, zombies and such. They could be the favored prey.

Now that I think of it, you have Hyenas, Rats, Vultures, etc. Basically scavengers but they don't fit any one family tree quite well.

Could group these "Auspices" into a interbreed organizations much like how Werewolf treats Lodges to focus on specific purposes and themes.

[Thorbes]

Well, I dumped hyenas with dogs, foxes and other canids. Need two more to round the breed up.