Changing Breeds 2.0- Because Someone had to

[wyrdhamster]

I'm just advising that if you want to stick to Sun motif - make a place for Dawn, Dusk and maybe Night for Cats. Or better - let's just use Solar Castes of Exalted for Cats and be done with. Then each Breed - Jaguars, Lions, Tigers, etc. - can have their own favorite Auspice ( based on Exalted Caste ).

'The Solars have five castes, named after the progress of the sun across the sky.

• Dawn: The Dawn caste are the generals and warriors of the Exalted. They can channel Essence into their anima to appear more terrifying.
• Zenith: The Zenith caste are the priests and leaders of the Exalted. In the time of the Solar Deliberative, the Zenith caste were the priest-kings of Creation. Zenith castes can channel their Essence to banish darkness and permanently terminate the undead.
• Twilight: The Twilight caste are sorcerers, scholars and savants. They can channel their Essence for damage resistance.
• Night: The Night caste are the assassins and spies of the Solars; in the First Age they were the secret and public police. They can channel their Essence for concealment of their anima.
• Eclipse: The Eclipse caste are the diplomats of the Solars. They can channel Essence to sanctify oaths, invoking a curse on oathbreakers. In addition, Eclipse Castes can learn any Charm, regardless of source.'

[wyrdhamster]

I'm just advising that if you want to stick to Sun motif - make a place for Dawn, Dusk and maybe Night for Cats. Or better - let's just use Solar Castes of Exalted for Cats and be done with. Then each Breed - Jaguars, Lions, Tigers, etc. - can have their own favorite Auspice ( based on Exalted Caste ).

'The Solars have five castes, named after the progress of the sun across the sky.

• Dawn: The Dawn caste are the generals and warriors of the Exalted. They can channel Essence into their anima to appear more terrifying.
• Zenith: The Zenith caste are the priests and leaders of the Exalted. In the time of the Solar Deliberative, the Zenith caste were the priest-kings of Creation. Zenith castes can channel their Essence to banish darkness and permanently terminate the undead.
• Twilight: The Twilight caste are sorcerers, scholars and savants. They can channel their Essence for damage resistance.
• Night: The Night caste are the assassins and spies of the Solars; in the First Age they were the secret and public police. They can channel their Essence for concealment of their anima.
• Eclipse: The Eclipse caste are the diplomats of the Solars. They can channel Essence to sanctify oaths, invoking a curse on oathbreakers. In addition, Eclipse Castes can learn any Charm, regardless of source.'

[Khanwulf]

Another reason for limiting the other shifters relative to werewolves is the simple fact that they're minor additions to the setting while werewolves get a full gameline all about them. Especially considering that Gifts needs to be reworked/replaced since they are the expression of Uratha's innate werewolfness shining through spiritual Facets. They do not work with most other shifters as-is because they're both unfitting for non-werewolves/predators/border guards and shouldn't work the same by the setting's internal rules. It might not be a bad idea to come up with a new set of powers altogether considering how much needs reworking. That way it's easier to mess around with the Renowns (or remove them from shifters who have no focus on such things, replacing Gifts with dot-rated powers like 1e Gifts or VtR's Disciplines).

Also a small nitpick: Pangaeans weren't all animal gods. Some were based on objects (such as the Pangaean known as Mountain) and others could very well be more abstract like the semi-official Harvest and the Perspective. But when updating Changing Breeds I suppose only the animal themed Pangaeans would be relevant, if you wish to explicitly tie them to Pangaeans at all.

Bolded for emphasis. This is exactly the point. My desire is that there be changing breeds (especially cat types). My desire is also not to rewrite WtF around them. How can this circle be squared? By hooking them onto the werewolf points as closely as possible.

Doing so might require some thought about Gifts beyond the obvious "no auto access to wolf gifts", but I haven't attempted an edit. If the ideas were that far along, I'd not be posting and would instead be releasing something to the STV. But there are specific reasons for why the developers chose to craft WtF 2e the way they did, and the mechanics intentionally further the themes. Tossing that for mechanics from other lines is... not something to do lightly.

So. Changing breeds are "wolves by any other name" and narrower than Urfarah's favorite children.

To your nitpick: sure, if you can think of a half-human/half-spirit offspring of, say, Luna and Mountain I'd love to see it. Would probably be a really interesting antagonist. Thing is though, that we can more easily imagine how an animal/human hybrid interacts with the world because both parts already do and give us examples. Trying to wrap the mind around other combinations of personified concepts is going to hurt at least as much as Mage does....

--Khanwulf

[Khanwulf]

I'm just advising that if you want to stick to Sun motif - make a place for Dawn, Dusk and maybe Night for Cats. Or better - let's just use Solar Castes of Exalted for Cats and be done with. Then each Breed - Jaguars, Lions, Tigers, etc. - can have their own favorite Auspice ( based on Exalted Caste ).

You're going to make me work, Wyrd. Ok:

* Dusk: (Elodoth) - Honor
* Night: (Irraka) - Cunning
* Dawn: (Rahu) - Purity
* Day: (Ithaeur) - Wisdom

You could also drop Rahu/Purity and use Day:Cahalith/Glory instead, shifting things around.

There's a temptation to make the tribes--other breeds of a given creature--into more significant supernatural items than WtF does for the tribes. This temptation should be resisted, as otherwise you'd need to create new tribes. Instead, assign the tribes the philosophical outlooks of the breed they use.

Now... why changing a breed results in a physical transformation to another [cat] type is a question for the spirits to answer!

--Khanwulf

PS. The conversation is lingering on cats, but the original point was to outline how you can map the structure of WtF wolves onto other breeds more broadly. If what your game needs is My Little Werepony, then it's possible with only some work using the assumptions I'm pointing toward.

[Ben Linus]

If I were to adapt I would totally disassociate myself from Werewolf. And it would tie the game as deeply into Aztec mythology and its cycles as Mummy is connected to Egyptian Mythology. It would use the myths of humans before the creation of Quetzoalcoalt who were condemned by the gods to be beasts because of their vanity derived from their perfection.

As they derive from Beasts, they either are born of a Beast or are within a few generations of one.

It would use an inverted theme of The Lord of the Flies, the urban environment is the environment where they are contained and are unable to adapt to it, just as the shipwrecked were unable to really adapt to the island and the wild, they survive but not really are part and understand. And they would associate evolution (they have to endure situations that are not prepared with a real risk of extinction to become more powerful individually, rather like Lair in Primordial, but it would also be linked to a sacrificial, something they have to give up).

Perhaps they used the archetypes of the primitive tribes as a form of punishment of the gods, so that perfect beings should serve humanity.

And a z axis of Gods, as each of you are, the night, the moon and its 400 stars, the gods of death, the sea, the storms, the blood, finally the most important regional gods as "Judges" Patrons and a sacrifice to satisfy. Or ignore this Z-axis in this respect and have as universal patron the Sun. Because in some variations, Xipe Totec is the Day Sun and Tezcatlipoca the Sun Nortune and Invisible (but still sun).

In addition, it would follow several of the recommendations of

LostLight

[Khanwulf]

If it's not too egotistical of me, I'd like to add to Khanwulf's discussion some of the ideas that went into my design of weresquids a few years ago (and which have been on my mind again as my eyes turn to the Storyteller's Vault and some of the possibilities it offers).

<snip>

Those are my main thoughts on the process of creating a different species of shapeshifter that fits into the Werewolf setting. As I've gone back over my notes, I think quite a number of elements need revision, refinement, and expansion (for example, although they still lack tribes, I've been working more on a Y-Axis archetype, tentatively called "Mythoi," so they feel a bit more player-friendly). I think the tighter design of 2nd edition Werewolf makes creating other species both easier and more difficult: As Khanwulf states, werewolves now "are complete by themselves" and so the idea of, say, weresquids running around willy-nilly makes less sense, but at the same time, the shift in focus from You're part wolf to You're a hunting predator opens up more possibilities as to what the Uratha themselves could be. I should also add that the majority of my design inspiration for the Kun-shulor comes from War Against the Pure rather than Changing Breeds, so basing creatures off that latter book may require a different way of thinking about things (it's been stated before, but technically it is a blue book rather than a Werewolf supplement).

Thank you and yes, it's an excellent addition to the discussion. The point flows: determine to what extent the design intent of the target creature maps onto wolves, and then leverage as much of their structure as (in?)humanly possible.

Also, thank you for dredging up my Illithid nightmares. Sigh.

But yes: if it makes sense for the presentation of a given "minor" shapeshifting splat to ditch part of the structure or toolkit wolves enjoy, then do it. I think only when adding new mechanics should one become very, very careful to justify them thematically.

--Khanwulf

[Ben Linus]

Thank you and yes, it's an excellent addition to the discussion. The point flows: determine to what extent the design intent of the target creature maps onto wolves, and then leverage as much of their structure as (in?)humanly possible.

Also, thank you for dredging up my Illithid nightmares. Sigh.

But yes: if it makes sense for the presentation of a given "minor" shapeshifting splat to ditch part of the structure or toolkit wolves enjoy, then do it. I think only when adding new mechanics should one become very, very careful to justify them thematically.

--Khanwulf

What do you think of my ideas for making a template bigger? Or is it still a lot like other games?

[Khanwulf]

If I were to adapt I would totally disassociate myself from Werewolf. And it would tie the game as deeply into Aztec mythology and its cycles as Mummy is connected to Egyptian Mythology. It would use the myths of humans before the creation of Quetzoalcoalt who were condemned by the gods to be beasts because of their vanity derived from their perfection.

That sounds like an interesting Chronicles of Darkness minor splat book. Or major, if you like, but focused on Central and South America geographically.

It sounds as well as if your approach would deviate on purpose considerably from the alignment of hybrid spirit/human creatures that WtF uses. That's fine, and could exist well alongside any other effort. What I'm really interested in, however, is how to 'fix" the best concepts from Change Breeds 1e--a book with significant flaws--and port them to 2e, a quite different version of the game.

Ultimately we want to be able to easily say: "play a were-X alongside the pack of wolves? Sure!" And hand the player a resource for such.

(Edit noting your post): A Central American myth-based approach has a lot of merit, not just for such the animal legends you point toward, but also for presenting mummies of a type not tied to the Nameless Empire. (My knowledge of Mummy is herewith exhausted.) I'm aware that there have been some significant discussions on these forums over the years about how to leverage the great load of unmined myth you're pointing toward.

It could make for a very interesting product, overall.

--Khanwulf

[Spectre9924]

What would work for groups like were-insects, land titans(rhinos and elephants), were-avians/bats, etc. ? I'm looking to possibly try writing background but could use a little guidance from those more experienced.

[wyrdhamster]

If going for the Khanwulf idea - You need to first reframe 'X Must Y' for each Breed - 2E WtF is centeres on Wolf Must Hunt. For those mechanics to work with other animals - they need the similar fundation for each Breed.

[wyrdhamster]

Looking over my own advice - If we have Wolf Must Hunt, then maybe we have:

Cat Must Know
Bear Must Heal / Guard
Spider Must Spin ( Web? Politics? )
Rat Must Chew (???)

[Spectre9924]

Maybe

Bird Must Watch
Bat Must Hide(?)
Hyena Must Clean
Crocodile/Alligator Must Patrol
Turtle Must Remember
Rhino Must(?)
Elephant Must Protect
Snake Must Manipulate

[Khanwulf]

wyrdhamster is correct in that my suggestion is to start with the mantra--the core philosophical driver of the breed's activity, and build out from there. I also caution to select first the breed(s) that you need, and not attempt to "boil the ocean" and come up with were-versions of everything.

Why?

First, the temptation is to make creatures exclusive, however in nature there is tremendous overlap because everyone shares the same physical rules and so certain ways of hunting (food), hiding (safety) and attracting mates will naturally be repeated. This is one of the reasons why I could, with a straight face, suggest that other, totally different animals could be Wolf's half-spiritual children--they share approaches at least partially with how Wolf interacts with the world.

Second, often the creature you're working with fits best as a "tribe" sub-breed. Hyenas are actually cats, btw.

Third, and this is a big one: if you get off into herbivores then you need to carefully link back to Wolf through boundaries not hunting. This can be tricky, but if not done then you'll be best served to connect them to a totally different Pangaean progenitor and make them half-siblings of wolves through Luna.

For some of this, going back to the original Changing Breeds 1e book and even WoD products may be helpful, as they do focus on the essential nature of the breed's behavior.

For example:
* Cat Must Know (hunting)
* Bird Must Watch (hunting) [note: there's a lot of conceptual overlap between cats and birds--ponder that; it's not a bug, it's a feature]
* Bear Must Protect (boundaries)
* Spider Must Catch (hunting) or Create (boundaries) [the Beshilu are Shartha spiders and they create/strengthen the barrier between material and spiritual]
* Snake Must Heal (boundaries) [deception is a later Church attribution to snakes in general, as the Creation story should properly be attributed to A snake, the great serpent, Satan]
* Rat Must Devour (hunting) or Gnaw (boundaries) [of these, Gnaw fits the Shartha form of Rat better; the Shartha do nothing but gnaw constantly at the Gauntlet, the barrier. Keep in mind that unless you're in a game without wolves, were-rats are going to have a very, very complicated relationship to sort out]

The mantra is used to drive the relationship between werecreature and their spiritual side. In wolves, if they do not Sacred Hunt often enough there are side-effects. Same for other creatures, using their own, focused versions.

...

Next step after this should be to sketch out some of the mythology that the creatures tell themselves, about who they are and what their place in the world is--how they got there. It will both guide their behavior and shape their interacts with other denizens of the Dark. Absolutely everyone should have some mention of Wolf in there, as well as Luna; they are just too central to be ignored at this stage. Further, there should be some connection to the lost hunting paradise of Pangaea, and something that defines how they look at the spirit world versus material world.


--Khanwulf

[wyrdhamster]

Generally agree with Khanwulf, only....

I also caution to select first the breed(s) that you need, and not attempt to "boil the ocean" and come up with were-versions of everything.

I would focus on base 8 Breeds from 1E Changing Breeds - it's more than enought to start and makes nice update. And I would define the Breed in the same, wide ways it was in 1E CB. So they would be:

• Bastet - Cats and Hyenas
• Land Titans - Elephants
• Laughing Strangers - Foxes, hares, coyotes, raccoons and possum.
• The Pack - Wolfkin, dog-folk, and wolverines.
• Royal Apes - Monkeys, gorillas and man-like mysteries.
• Spinner-Kin - Spiders.
• Ursara - Bears.
• Wind-Runners - Horses, elk and deer.
• Wing-Folk - Birds.

* Spider Must Catch (hunting) or Create (boundaries) [the Beshilu are Shartha spiders and they create/strengthen the barrier between material and spiritual]

I would stick here with Spider Must Weaver - it joins both Catch and Create in one way.

* Rat Must Gnaw (boundaries)

Sounds good and joins with Shartha.

[Spectre9924]

What about possibly were-sharks? Or is that kinda overreaching? Speaking of which, in terms of aquatic therianthropes the squid one from earlier sounds awesome!